Pope on gays : "Who am I to judge?"

[Viking]

Who is he to judge? WTF? The Popes Instruction Manual is pretty clear on the issue.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/homosexuality.html

[Sheilbh]

Nothing terribly new here, though the tone and style of the comments are very different than you'd get from Benedict or JP. It may have an impact on seminaries, which is good because had Benedict's policies applied retrospectively many parishes would lack priests and he'd have had to abdicate a few years early.

[Sheilbh]

Who is he to judge? WTF? The Popes Instruction Manual is pretty clear on the issue.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/homosexuality.html

I think the key documents you're looking for are the Catechism and the Letter to the Bishops on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons

[Viking]

Who is he to judge? WTF? The Popes Instruction Manual is pretty clear on the issue.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/homosexuality.html

I think the key documents you're looking for are the Catechism and the Letter to the Bishops on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons

meh, you don't get to both change the rules as you go along as well as claim that you have objective truth or objective morality.

[Sheilbh]

meh, you don't get to both change the rules as you go along as well as claim that you have objective truth or objective morality.

It's the sola scriptura lot that changed the rules. The magisterium has a couple of thousand years of revealed objective truth in doctrine - so, for the most part, do the Orthodox.

[garbon]

Who is he to judge? WTF? The Popes Instruction Manual is pretty clear on the issue.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/homosexuality.html

I think the key documents you're looking for are the Catechism and the Letter to the Bishops on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons

meh, you don't get to both change the rules as you go along as well as claim that you have objective truth or objective morality.

Yes you can. The history of the church is one of changing doctrines.

[Viking]

meh, you don't get to both change the rules as you go along as well as claim that you have objective truth or objective morality.

It's the sola scriptura lot that changed the rules. The magisterium has a couple of thousand years of revealed objective truth in doctrine - so, for the most part, do the Orthodox.

Yet, this magisterium managed to be explicitely homophobic for nearly 2000 years and the "sola scriptura" lot managed to get over the homophobia decades earlier.


Edit: but then again, defending yourself against the claim of homophobia by pointing at somebody else saying "he is worse" isn't really a defense.

[Viking]

Who is he to judge? WTF? The Popes Instruction Manual is pretty clear on the issue.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/homosexuality.html

I think the key documents you're looking for are the Catechism and the Letter to the Bishops on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons

meh, you don't get to both change the rules as you go along as well as claim that you have objective truth or objective morality.

Yes you can. The history of the church is one of changing doctrines.

and it follows from that that it is not objective. An organization that at times argues that burning heretics and waging war on infidels is moral and now claims that it is moral to be tolerant and peaceful can't claim objective moral truth.

Either it's truth is relative or objective moral truth changes over time. Neither position is actually held by any religion.

[Jacob]

One of these days you'll change someone's mind Viking. You just have to keep going.

[Viking]

One of these days you'll change someone's mind Viking. You just have to keep going.

Objective facts and/or logically consistent arguments based on true premises will change my mind.

[Jacob]

Objective facts and/or logically consistent arguments based on true premises will change my mind.

Of course.

I'm not sure why you bring that up, however, as I didn't mention anyone changing your mind.

[garbon]

One of these days you'll change someone's mind Viking. You just have to keep going.

[Sheilbh]

Yet, this magisterium managed to be explicitely homophobic for nearly 2000 years and the "sola scriptura" lot managed to get over the homophobia decades earlier.

Doesn't that demonstrate my point? The Catholic church doesn't really change the rules, certainly not on doctrine, ever. That's part of the reason the Church claims it is teaching truth - that it's unchanging.

Also I don't think homophobia's an entirely useful word in this context.

Yes you can. The history of the church is one of changing doctrines.

I can't think of a single doctrine changed in the entire history of the Church.

[Viking]

Yet, this magisterium managed to be explicitely homophobic for nearly 2000 years and the "sola scriptura" lot managed to get over the homophobia decades earlier.

Doesn't that demonstrate my point? The Catholic church doesn't really change the rules, certainly not on doctrine, ever. That's part of the reason the Church claims it is teaching truth - that it's unchanging.

Also I don't think homophobia's an entirely useful word in this context.

Yes you can. The history of the church is one of changing doctrines.

I can't think of a single doctrine changed in the entire history of the Church.

Just off the top of my head, clerical celibacy, purgatory, ecumenicism and vernacular liturgy.

[Sheilbh]

Only doctrine there is purgatory and I can't think of any changes to that.

The rest are disciplines, they're parts of the Church's teaching which are acknowledged as man-made and could be changed. They're to do with the structures and shapes of practice of the Church, or to some extent to do with individual or communal devotions.

The issue of liturgy for example wasn't even a Catholic teaching it's a teaching of the Roman rite specifically and exceptions were made, for example for Jesuits in the Far East and for Cyril and Methodius. There's a few Roman Catholic dioceses in Croatia that still use, I think Old Slavonic, because they were granted special dispensation by Rome. Pre-Reformation there were a few other European rites that used the Vernacular. Trent generally regularised all of the Roman Catholic Church into Latin but they didn't give any dogmatic reasons for Latin or against the vernacular because it's not an issue of doctrine.