Europa Universalis IV announced

[garbon]

Very strange. Also where is Paradox PR - pulling out their hair?

[garbon]

Btw, does this mean Amazon will get in trouble as well? They have the same stance on e-books.

[Tamas]

I don't think there is a "right" answer, morally. There will be one legally, eventually.

[Syt]

It's all a big grey area at the moment.

Anecdotal case in point: a friend wanted to sell his old Photoshop license. Adobe caters for that. But.

You have to fill out a form, provide proof of purchase etc., the form needs to be signed physically both by you and the person you sell it to, and needs to be sent to Adobe. He wanted to put it up on ebay, but ended up keeping the license, because it was just not worth it.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I fear Johan is in the wrong there. You buy the product as well as the right to play it. It's not a rent-contract.

[Vricklund]

And Johan's stance:

No, fuck Johans attitude. I would never buy a painting if the painter said "You know my work doesn't degrade over time and you're not really buying this physical painting, you're just buying the right to enjoy it, it may never be looked at by any other than close family members, never resold and is to be burnt at least 24h after you are pronounced dead".

[crazy canuck]

And Johan's stance:

No, fuck Johans attitude. I would never buy a painting if the painter said "You know my work doesn't degrade over time and you're not really buying this physical painting, you're just buying the right to enjoy it, it may never be looked at by any other than close family members, never resold and is to be burnt at least 24h after you are pronounced dead".

The ability to resell is factored into the price of the sale of the original painting.  With games you are only buying the rights set out in the terms of sale.  If you wanted the right to become a seller of the game yourself the terms of sale (and the sale price) would reflect those different terms.

[DGuller]

The difference between the painting and the computer game is that one is a physical object, and the other is pure intellectual property.  Intellectual property is almost never sold, it almost always licensed in some way.  That's the only way it can really be traded, the market would otherwise break down.  Johan is entirely in the right here, and it's not even close.

[garbon]

And Johan's stance:

No, fuck Johans attitude. I would never buy a painting if the painter said "You know my work doesn't degrade over time and you're not really buying this physical painting, you're just buying the right to enjoy it, it may never be looked at by any other than close family members, never resold and is to be burnt at least 24h after you are pronounced dead".

Yeah there should never be a place where the developer says this:

I actually prefer pirates over people to resell or buy secondhand copies.

[Vricklund]

Perhaps I should've said lithography instead of painting? The artist then has the IP (and the ability to make more copies) and I have a licensed copy?

Oh well, I'm hardly a big spender on digital media so the point is moot for me but my moral compass or "entitlement" says it's fucked up. The restrictions are perhaps in the fine print but, to me, as a run of the mill consumer, it's not factored into the price when I buy a game or a music track.

That doesn't mean I expect a lifetime subscription to my local newspaper, or a lifetime of cell phone use, or life time spotify listening just because I paid for it once. In those circumstances the limitations are apparant and I'm therefore fine with it.

[mongers]

I bought a few paradox games, still have a few knocking around, some I got bored with and sold. 

What's stopped my buying any more after the various HOI2 expansions, is the broken naval combat/sea based component of the nearly all of their games. 

If they came up with one where that side of the game worked, I'd start buying them again and wouldn't be bothered if I had to buy a physical disc game or just a 'license to rent'.

[Faeelin]

Those parts are pretty much the ones being overhauled.

I'm still waiting ot hear if hte AI will have infinite naval range and be shipping 30,000 men to India in 1530.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The difference between the painting and the computer game is that one is a physical object, and the other is pure intellectual property.  Intellectual property is almost never sold, it almost always licensed in some way.  That's the only way it can really be traded, the market would otherwise break down.  Johan is entirely in the right here, and it's not even close.

we can resell books, video's, dvd's and whatnot -and clearly the market hasn't broken down there either, despite the fact that the reselling of this intellectual property doesn't benefit the creator(s) financially. We bloody well have the right to resell our digital games.
people need to take their rights as consumers a bit more seriously, cause the companies (big or small) won't (as it's not their purpose of being).

[Tamas]

I fear Johan is in the wrong there. You buy the product as well as the right to play it. It's not a rent-contract.

you ought to read some of the contracts you are accepting when installing games

you are, in all intents and purposes, renting. The fact that the EU again plays a commie bastard changing contracts at its whim is a different matter

[garbon]

I fear Johan is in the wrong there. You buy the product as well as the right to play it. It's not a rent-contract.

you ought to read some of the contracts you are accepting when installing games

I don't know. It is like a reasonable person reads those.