[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

GF, sounds to me like you have a significant problem with provincial taxation levels.

Nah, we have a problem with fixed minimum milk prices.

Ok, I should have said you have a problem with the provincial government artifially inflating the cost. 

[Grey Fox]

To add another topic of debate.

If there was ever a question in my mind that the triple E Senate idea was a bad idea, the recent American experience removes all doubt from my mind.  There is no reason why we should follow the American example and create a system designed to fail.

Also given our recent experience of corruption within our own Senate I think it is time to abolish it.  The Senate serves no purpose that a properly constituted Parliamentary committee could not perform.  Granted the issue of the Constitutional Amendment would create huge headaches.

What's Triple E?

I don't know, I'd like the system post-Senate reform to instutituate checks on, well, uncheck power of a Majority lead Government.

[Grey Fox]

GF, sounds to me like you have a significant problem with provincial taxation levels.

Nah, we have a problem with fixed minimum milk prices.

Ok, I should have said you have a problem with the provincial government artifially inflating the cost.

Yes, we do. Gotta protect the farmers so they can speculate on the price of Corn. 

[viper37]

Besides, several prominent jurists have already validated the project. 

Care to share a link.  That would be interesting reading.

Here's one:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/24/parti-quebecois-religion-plan-gets-support-from-retired-supreme-court-judge/

I thought you were going to link something in which a prominant jurist "validated the project".  Instead I get a third hand article in which a reporter says that a group said that a prominent jurist supports them.

If you can find a piece actually written by a prominant jurist which supports the Quebec Charter in its current proposed form I would be very interested to read how they argue their point. 

I checked the site, unfortunatly, their proposal in in French only.  But it's been written before the Charter was officially presented to the public.  It's about laïcité, they don't comment on any PQ proposals.

Some of these make sense, like using States funds only for secular state project (i.e. not doing like the Federal government and giving money to religious organizations in charge of 3rd world development).
Other things also make sense: no crucifix, no prayers in public (government, city council, etc) space.

About the state's employees, they don't make a distinction between visible signs or not visible signs, they don't talk about the size, only that no one should wear a religious sign while being employed by the State. 

Of an interesting note: they say Quebec needs to be well prepared and obtain serious legal advice before going ahead with any of these proposals.


So, just to clarify, the ex Supreme Court Judge is a simple member of this movement, she did not validate anything in it, she did not comment on the PQ charter at all.

[crazy canuck]

That makes more sense.  Thanks Viper.

[viper37]

GF, sounds to me like you have a significant problem with provincial taxation levels.

Nah, we have a problem with fixed minimum milk prices.

Ok, I should have said you have a problem with the provincial government artifially inflating the cost. 

that's for the entire country, it's a Federal initiative
the base cost of milk, the price paid to producers is the same through the entire country.

What's different in Quebec:
1- there is a base price on milk sold in grocery stores, while in Canada they can use milk as a loss leader, Quebec based grocery stores can not.

2- the quota system for milk producers (there is one for chicken producers too) is provincially managed, but the UPA (Union des Producteurs Agricoles).  Other provinces have similar systems.  The price is unique for Quebec, but system is similar all accross Canada: basically, before he can produce 1lt of milk, the producer must buy a quota share that will let him sell his milk to Milk producers federation (Fédération des producteurs de Lait), wich in turn gives contract to local milk transformation plant to collect the milk from farmers (usually, one of the local farmers mutual organization).

This process makes it extremely difficult for small milk producers.  Cheese makers often to produce their own milk (wich they can't sell to anyone else) because of problems with supply, and the variety of milk too.  The most common cow in Quebec is the Holstein (the black and white one).  It gives a superior milk (and quantity for the food needed) than any other cows.  However, for transformation, cheesemakers find it a little to bland, so they need their own producers.  However, it is extremely difficult to make a profit from a mid-size farm with non Holstein cows if you need to buy quota to sell your surplus...

[crazy canuck]

To add another topic of debate.

If there was ever a question in my mind that the triple E Senate idea was a bad idea, the recent American experience removes all doubt from my mind.  There is no reason why we should follow the American example and create a system designed to fail.

Also given our recent experience of corruption within our own Senate I think it is time to abolish it.  The Senate serves no purpose that a properly constituted Parliamentary committee could not perform.  Granted the issue of the Constitutional Amendment would create huge headaches.

What's Triple E?

I don't know, I'd like the system post-Senate reform to instutituate checks on, well, uncheck power of a Majority lead Government.

EEE= elected, effective and equal.  It was the calling card policy of the Reform movement.  One of the many reasons I did not support them.

We dont now nor should we ever had a check on the power of a Majority government.  The supremacy of Parliament is along held tradition within our form of goverment.  The Senate is designed as a chamber of sober second thought.  Currently it can slow legislative processes through review but it can never have the kind of power to obstruct the will of Parliament that we see in the US system.

[viper37]

That makes more sense.  Thanks Viper.

this is their site:
http://www.laicitequebec.org/index_en.php
All the links are in French, but they have an english summary and a list of some petition signers.

[crazy canuck]

that's for the entire country, it's a Federal initiative
the base cost of milk, the price paid to producers is the same through the entire country.

What's different in Quebec:
1- there is a base price on milk sold in grocery stores, while in Canada they can use milk as a loss leader, Quebec based grocery stores can not.

2- the quota system for milk producers (there is one for chicken producers too) is provincially managed, but the UPA (Union des Producteurs Agricoles).  Other provinces have similar systems.  The price is unique for Quebec, but system is similar all accross Canada: basically, before he can produce 1lt of milk, the producer must buy a quota share that will let him sell his milk to Milk producers federation (Fédération des producteurs de Lait), wich in turn gives contract to local milk transformation plant to collect the milk from farmers (usually, one of the local farmers mutual organization).

This process makes it extremely difficult for small milk producers.  Cheese makers often to produce their own milk (wich they can't sell to anyone else) because of problems with supply, and the variety of milk too.  The most common cow in Quebec is the Holstein (the black and white one).  It gives a superior milk (and quantity for the food needed) than any other cows.  However, for transformation, cheesemakers find it a little to bland, so they need their own producers.  However, it is extremely difficult to make a profit from a mid-size farm with non Holstein cows if you need to buy quota to sell your surplus...

It is a Federal initiative only in the sense that the Feds have laws which allow Provinces to structure these things the way they wish.  ie supply management isnt contrary to Federal competition laws.

[Grey Fox]

To add another topic of debate.

If there was ever a question in my mind that the triple E Senate idea was a bad idea, the recent American experience removes all doubt from my mind.  There is no reason why we should follow the American example and create a system designed to fail.

Also given our recent experience of corruption within our own Senate I think it is time to abolish it.  The Senate serves no purpose that a properly constituted Parliamentary committee could not perform.  Granted the issue of the Constitutional Amendment would create huge headaches.

What's Triple E?

I don't know, I'd like the system post-Senate reform to instutituate checks on, well, uncheck power of a Majority lead Government.

EEE= elected, effective and equal.  It was the calling card policy of the Reform movement.  One of the many reasons I did not support them.

We dont now nor should we ever had a check on the power of a Majority government.  The supremacy of Parliament is along held tradition within our form of goverment.  The Senate is designed as a chamber of sober second thought.  Currently it can slow legislative processes through review but it can never have the kind of power to obstruct the will of Parliament that we see in the US system.

[viper37]

To add another topic of debate.

If there was ever a question in my mind that the triple E Senate idea was a bad idea, the recent American experience removes all doubt from my mind.  There is no reason why we should follow the American example and create a system designed to fail.

Also given our recent experience of corruption within our own Senate I think it is time to abolish it.  The Senate serves no purpose that a properly constituted Parliamentary committee could not perform.  Granted the issue of the Constitutional Amendment would create huge headaches.

the problem of the Americans came from the House of Representatives, not the Senate.
And they happenned because the Americans still haven't solved the issue leading to their Civil War, namely, the seperation of powers between the Federal gov and the States.  Some States clearly don't want of a Federal idea to have universal health insurance coverage and some others think it's a good idea.

I think, on the contrary it makes sense, for a large country like Canada, especially when we are even more centralized than America, to have a body that represents provincial interests, with a fixed number of senators from each province, regardless of their population.  Otherwise, the smaller areas of the country never get to say a word on things that might affect them.  Might as well give the keys of the country to Toronto and elect mayor Ford as Prime Minister.

Canada has different issues from coast to coast.  Or else, you change your mind and are now defending a single canadian culture and vision from coast to coast?

[viper37]

It is a Federal initiative only in the sense that the Feds have laws which allow Provinces to structure these things the way they wish.  ie supply management isnt contrary to Federal competition laws.

Federal initiative:
Canadian Dairy Commission


Unfortunately, most milk producers have no idea of how much it costs them to operate, if they make real profit or not.  They're halfway between artisan and entrepreneurs.  Most count on the fact that they get a fixed pay-check every 2 weeks to pay their bills.  Many of them fail once they try to do something in an unregulated market (like pork).

[Malthus]

Canadian supply management for milk is an unbearably byzantine system. I doubt anyone really understands it. 

The net effect is clear enough: it's a protectionist cartel.

[Valmy]

You should start an armed milk gang to smuggle black market milk into Canada.

Pity is so much less transferable and does not keep as long as drugs.

[garbon]

You should start an armed milk gang to smuggle black market milk into Canada.

Pity is so much less transferable and does not keep as long as drugs.

I'm not sure they could handle our bag-less varieties.