[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

it looks like a very low bar of annoyance.

Being woken up at 4 AM for no reason is not a low bar of annoyance, IMO. Some people have a hard time falling asleep, plenty of people are not getting enough sleep already, and interruptions to their sleep is going to severely impact the quality of the next day (with potential impacts for physical safety and mental health, for example).

It may be that there's a good argument for waking up thousands of people for these alerts even if they're far flung, but IMO "it's not a big deal" is not one of them.

[Malthus]

I don't think the issue is whether it is a serious annoyance or not - clearly, in the sum of things, it is pretty minor. Having your sleep interrupted five times a year (or whatever) is annoying to be sure, but a small price to pay - if the system was actually working as intended.

The issue is that is degrades the purpose of the system. People start to feel that the system is kinda pointless, offering alerts that are essentially meaningless to them. So people stop paying attention to it. Assuming that is happening, which there is lots of admittedly anecdotal evidence, the government is spending resources to wake millions up several times a year - for little purpose other than to degrade the effectiveness of what could be a useful system.

Never mind that the alerts are often issued in French and English separately, often some time apart, enhancing the annoyance factor.

This will come to bite us in the ass one day, if an alert is issued that is actually pertinent.

The annoying thing is that this would be so easy to fix. Issue alerts as present, but reserve the audible emergency alarm for true mass emergencies. In short, have two different levels of alerts, with the top alert reserved for those special occasions in which large numbers of people have to be alerted at once and immediately. That way, people will not cease paying attention to it. Such a solution would not cost anything and would, apparently, be easy to implement (other nations have different levels of alerts).

[Oexmelin]

Being woken up at 4 AM for no reason is not a low bar of annoyance, IMO. Some people have a hard time falling asleep, plenty of people are not getting enough sleep already, and interruptions to their sleep is going to severely impact the quality of the next day (with potential impacts for physical safety and mental health, for example).

Still looks like a very low bar for annoyance considering what is at stake. Sure, my next morning may be impacted five times a year, if that. We are not talking about being woken up multiple times a week, every week. I have been woken up by an Amber alert exactly once in the last... five years?

We can discuss whether or not Amber alerts are effective - but that they *may* wake up people a few times a year doesn't really factor, IMO. Nor should it.

As for the "boy who cried wolf" phenomenon, I am skeptical of this as well. I don't know that Amber alerts truly erode people's good will, or attention to other alerts. In the best of time, Amber alerts serve to put pressure on the abductor, and ask people to keep an eye out for the people described - not go out in search & rescue parties. I can tell you it didn't erode my attention about the tornado alert whenever it buzzed - including in the middle of the night.

To be perfectly honest, this seems to be like people being inordinately annoyed at something quite minor that disturbs their comfort mostly because they aren't able to tune it out, and then finding elaborate justifications to change the system.

[Malthus]

It is pretty evident that the current use does in fact erode good will. Just check out people online searching ways to disable the system. There are tons of them. Plus, anecdotally, people here are saying as much. 

I am "quite skeptical" that the system absolutely has to be designed in this way, and no other. That no improvements whatsoever can be made, and that suggesting any improvements is just anti-social selfishness.

The "elaborate justification" involved: to use different alert levels - as, apparently, other jurisdictions are quite capable of doing.

[Oexmelin]

Sure. I am not saying the system cannot be tweaked. I am sure it can. I just find it depressing that people are getting so animated about a minor inconvenience, that seeks to serve quite an important goal. (And again, it's fine if Amber is ultimately found to not serve that purpose.) The animosity seems disproportionate with regards to other annoyances that people otherwise put up with little to no fuss.

[viper37]

it looks like a very low bar of annoyance.

It's an annoyance because there's nothing you can do at that time when you're sleeping.

Hence, if it was muted and only visible when your phone came back from it's DND state, it would be more effective.

The people who are asleep will shut the phone off without looking and won't think about it when they wake up, so it's wasted.

Even if it happens only 4-5 times a year, it's goddam annoying to get awaken for nothing in the middle of the night.

[viper37]

Being woken up at 4 AM for no reason is not a low bar of annoyance, IMO. Some people have a hard time falling asleep, plenty of people are not getting enough sleep already, and interruptions to their sleep is going to severely impact the quality of the next day (with potential impacts for physical safety and mental health, for example).

Still looks like a very low bar for annoyance considering what is at stake. Sure, my next morning may be impacted five times a year, if that. We are not talking about being woken up multiple times a week, every week. I have been woken up by an Amber alert exactly once in the last... five years?

We can discuss whether or not Amber alerts are effective - but that they *may* wake up people a few times a year doesn't really factor, IMO. Nor should it.

As for the "boy who cried wolf" phenomenon, I am skeptical of this as well. I don't know that Amber alerts truly erode people's good will, or attention to other alerts. In the best of time, Amber alerts serve to put pressure on the abductor, and ask people to keep an eye out for the people described - not go out in search & rescue parties. I can tell you it didn't erode my attention about the tornado alert whenever it buzzed - including in the middle of the night.

To be perfectly honest, this seems to be like people being inordinately annoyed at something quite minor that disturbs their comfort mostly because they aren't able to tune it out, and then finding elaborate justifications to change the system.

Ok, let's imagine another system.

I know your phone number.  I know you live 4 hours aways from me.  If I call you at 4:00am to ask if you've seen my neighbours daughter who disapeared, what am I achieving exactly?  Shouldn't I wait a little later to ask you about it, to tell you to be on the lookout because she could be headed toward Montreal?

Even at 4:00 pm, if someone is working from 12:00 to 8:00 am, they could very well be asleep at that time.  What is the necessity of a buzzer alert for everyone, for something there is no immediate action required, like say, in case of a tornado, when they specifically put their phone in DND mode?

[garbon]

Sure. I am not saying the system cannot be tweaked. I am sure it can. I just find it depressing that people are getting so animated about a minor inconvenience, that seeks to serve quite an important goal. (And again, it's fine if Amber is ultimately found to not serve that purpose.) The animosity seems disproportionate with regards to other annoyances that people otherwise put up with little to no fuss.

I guess at the heart of it, why did Canada pick to implement Amber alerts in the manner that they did? As far as I know that's now how they work in America.

[Jacob]

I guess at the heart of it, why did Canada pick to implement Amber alerts in the manner that they did? As far as I know that's now how they work in America.

It may be an Ontario thing rather than a Canada thing. I hope so.

[crazy canuck]

I guess at the heart of it, why did Canada pick to implement Amber alerts in the manner that they did? As far as I know that's now how they work in America.

It may be an Ontario thing rather than a Canada thing. I hope so.

We have something similar but it is targeted to the areas affected but it can also be broadcast province wide.  Why anyone would do that in a province the size of much of Western Europe is another question.

[Valmy]

Yeah I get amber alerts all the time for abductions in small Texas communities hundreds of miles away. I guess if I saw one for a local community I would be on the lookout but I never have. It is always some place I have to check on a map to find out exactly where it is.

[viper37]

No one is talking about the London (On) attacks?

I was surprised I did not see a column or editorial in the National Post or Globe&Mail about how all this is because of Ontarians racist attitudes toward "strangers" (as in, visibile minorities).  I'd sure thought they'd do the same as they usually do for Quebec.  I guess it'll be there tomorrow.

[Jacob]

No one is talking about the London (On) attacks?

I was surprised I did not see a column or editorial in the National Post or Globe&Mail about how all this is because of Ontarians racist attitudes toward "strangers" (as in, visibile minorities).  I'd sure thought they'd do the same as they usually do for Quebec.  I guess it'll be there tomorrow.

Last I read, they had reason to believe he killed them because they were Muslim. If that's true, it seems a bit early to whine about how people blame racists.

That poor kid

... for those not in the now, some guy deliberately drove his truck over a Muslim family, killing the mother, father, kids... leaving a nine year old boy as the only survivor.

[Josephus]

I watched some of the memorial for the family yesetrday.

At some point the whole thing became a political debate, and got quite annoying.

IMO, all you need, if you need politicians at all, is the prime minister, the premier and the city's mayor.

But they had the leaders of the federal Liberals, Conservatives, NDP and Greens speaking and then the leaders of the Ontario Conservatives, NDP, Liberals and Greens.  Honestly it was too much.

[Malthus]

I don't understand how this could be a politicized matter here. There is no political party in Canada that is likely to argue that randomly murdering people who happen to be Muslim is *not* an evil action.

What is required is sincere condolences to the family and community, and a stern commitment to combat anti-Muslim bigotry specifically.