[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Malthus]

So lets do a thought experiment.  What if the therapy was effective on a small amount of the population and so could not be considered a fraud.  I assume you would have no objection to it despite the active harm it does to those for whom it is not effective and perhaps to those for whom it is.

Then it would be no different from any other high-risk therapy that carries with it significant adverse effects -put in place strict informed consent requirements and screen for psychological compatibility to reduce the risk as much as possible.

To give an example: sex reassignment surgery, aka gender confirming surgery. This carries with it significant risks. For some, it is ineffective (because their issues turn out not to be fixable by reassignment); for others, effective. It's potentially funded in Ontario, with all sorts of gatekeeping by the medical profession:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/gender-confirming-surgery

The difference of course is that there is no evidence that 'straight therapy' works. It appears to be a pure fraud.

That noted - if it did 'work', I don't see why a process for someone uncomfortable with their sexual orientation should be treated as fundamentally different from one for someone uncomfortable with their sex.

[viper37]

Two!

Anyhow,  a piece from Rick Salutin on the NDP's apparent demise, looking at the past three decades:

https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/9500642-ndp-or-endp-is-it-over-for-this-radical-canadian-party-/

as the NDP starts to disapears, all the commies will join the Greens and transform it from a relevant, positive, ecological force into a vehicle for leftist purity.

[crazy canuck]

That noted - if it did 'work', I don't see why a process for someone uncomfortable with their sexual orientation should be treated as fundamentally different from one for someone uncomfortable with their sex.

That is what I thought your position would be and highlights nicely the context you are ignoring.

The difference is that there is no societal pressure for one to be uncomfortable with their sex.  There has been a great deal of societal pressure for people to feel uncomfortable about being anything other than hetero.  That is of course changing.  But your analogies assume that difference no longer exists.  Heck, its not even an assumption - you flat out say there is no difference.

[viper37]

The difference is that there is no societal pressure for one to be uncomfortable with their sex.

Depends on how you define it.

There has been a great deal of societal pressure for people to feel uncomfortable about being anything other than hetero.  That is of course changing.  But your analogies assume that difference no longer exists.  Heck, its not even an assumption - you flat out say there is no difference.

It exists in some deeply religious communities.  Not in general society.  And there is no indication that the therapy is hurtful in itself.  At worst, it has no effect.  One's own discomfort with his/her sexual orientation is the problem that needs to be fixed.  Therapy or no therapy, if people feel "abnormal", "strange", "filthy", "disgusting", making a conversion therapy illegal will only push people to seek "treatment" elsewhere.  I think we should reinforce education and evaluate (ideally with psychologists) how best to reach these people.

[crazy canuck]

The difference is that there is no societal pressure for one to be uncomfortable with their sex.

Depends on how you define it.

I am not sure what you mean by that.  Are you suggesting that there is societal pressure that someone should feel trapped in the body in which they were born?  It is the other way around. 

[saskganesh]

Two!

Anyhow,  a piece from Rick Salutin on the NDP's apparent demise, looking at the past three decades:

https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/9500642-ndp-or-endp-is-it-over-for-this-radical-canadian-party-/

as the NDP starts to disapears, all the commies will join the Greens and transform it from a relevant, positive, ecological force into a vehicle for leftist purity.

There are no "commies" in the NDP...

broken record. WTF do I post here?

[Grey Fox]

Two!

Anyhow,  a piece from Rick Salutin on the NDP's apparent demise, looking at the past three decades:

https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/9500642-ndp-or-endp-is-it-over-for-this-radical-canadian-party-/

as the NDP starts to disapears, all the commies will join the Greens and transform it from a relevant, positive, ecological force into a vehicle for leftist purity.

Don't kid!

[crazy canuck]

Two!

Anyhow,  a piece from Rick Salutin on the NDP's apparent demise, looking at the past three decades:

https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/9500642-ndp-or-endp-is-it-over-for-this-radical-canadian-party-/

I hadn't thought of it this way but he is absolutely right. The top two issues for Canadians are cost of living (which can easily be translated into the need to deal with income inequality and better supports for workers) and climate change (which should easily be in the NDP wheelhouse).  But despite that the NDP is doing poorly.  Here is the part of the article I found most troubling for the NDP:

The desertion of past principle is ironic since the "left" position has surged back, especially among the young. They aren't prey to the mythos of private property for good reasons: they won't have much. They don't expect to own houses, cars or even bikes — and have decided it's fine to share. Not just socialism but a "co-operative Commonwealth" — the CC in CCF — might make sense to them.

[Malthus]

That noted - if it did 'work', I don't see why a process for someone uncomfortable with their sexual orientation should be treated as fundamentally different from one for someone uncomfortable with their sex.

That is what I thought your position would be and highlights nicely the context you are ignoring.

The difference is that there is no societal pressure for one to be uncomfortable with their sex.  There has been a great deal of societal pressure for people to feel uncomfortable about being anything other than hetero.  That is of course changing.  But your analogies assume that difference no longer exists.  Heck, its not even an assumption - you flat out say there is no difference.

The existence of "societal pressure" is definitely different in those two situations - but there is nothing to suggest that "societal pressure" ought to invalidate an adult's informed consent to therapy or treatment, assuming they are truly adults and not subject to one of those limited exceptions where an adult is not capable of giving consent.

"Societal pressure", bad and good, exists for all sorts of things: for example, society pressures women into unrealistic standards of beauty (and this pressure is far more significant in our urban society than anti-gay prejudice these days) - yet women are legally capable of giving informed consent to cosmetic surgery despite the health risks of such procedures. Cosmetic surgery for women is a huge business.

So - given the proven existence of that "societal pressure", should we now legally strip women of autonomy over their bodies and say they are incapable of deciding for themselves such matters? 

[crazy canuck]

I think we will just have to agree to disagree that cosmetic surgery is in any way equivalent.

[Josephus]

You guys probably missed this from the TV thread:

Nanos poll shows Libs ahead by a few points now. Which goes back to my post from a couple weeks ago (in this thread) about how polls this early in the game mean fuck all

[crazy canuck]

You guys probably missed this from the TV thread:

Nanos poll shows Libs ahead by a few points now. Which goes back to my post from a couple weeks ago (in this thread) about how polls this early in the game mean fuck all

Yep, it is only three months away but many Canadians have likely given the election no thought at all.

[HVC]

The eviroment and climate change deniers? Meh, whatever. But Scheer will be damned if the anti milk lobby isn't stopped

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/lifestylefood/scheer-canadas-food-guide-is-ideologically-driven-doesnt-reflect-science/ar-AAEtHQY?ocid=spartanntp

[Grey Fox]

Scheer owns his leadership of the party to the Milk lobby so this is quite understandable. The lobby is still angry over the latest food guide not promoting milk.

[crazy canuck]

The eviroment and climate change deniers? Meh, whatever. But Scheer will be damned if the anti milk lobby isn't stopped

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/lifestylefood/scheer-canadas-food-guide-is-ideologically-driven-doesnt-reflect-science/ar-AAEtHQY?ocid=spartanntp

Those two things are somewhat connected.