Can natural selection select for genes based on their utility at a group level?

[Martinus]

What do you think of the notion that homosexuality recurs as a method of preventing potentially destabilizing male-vs-male sexual conflict?

I think homosexuality could enhance male-vs-male sexual conflict; now in addition to competing with other males for women, males have to worry about competing with other males for each other, not to mention the possibility of being sexually coerced by other men.

That doesn't make much sense, really.

Sexual competition for men is not exclusive - unlike women, we do not get pregnant so there is no biological limit on the number of sexual partners we can have.

As for sexual coercion of men by men, I believe that in environments where women are available, it is practically non-existent. I think your post just displays what I think the basis for homophobia is - that heterosexual men fear homosexual men would behave the same way towards them as they do towards women.

[alfred russel]

No idea, however not all of evolution has a specific reason. Not all traits are breed for (or bred against). Many traits are just incidental. Says the gay gene may be tied to another trait. being gay is just co-incidental to this trait. Not all people who have this "good" trait are gay (say recessive gene at it's simplest, though there are many other factors that cause traits to manifest. The "unintended consequence" of gayness at 10% could fall well within the normal die off within a species so that the "good" trait (with gayness attached) doesn't die out. Genetic and evolution is way more complicated the good traits survive, bad traits die off.

Still, I don't think my theory is totally bunk. I mean, at least retrospectively, it seems that having a "drone caste" in a society is beneficial to the society as a whole. It is not a coincidence that a lot of work of art and science came from men who were childless (whether because of their celibacy - religiously ordained or not, homosexuality or another lifestyle choice). Children just take a lot of energy and resources.

What a terrible way to achieve a drone caste! One thousand plus years of rather harsh discrimination would seem to reduce the prevalence of such a trait when any group advantage would be equally achieved through the absence of a sex drive.

If you think about sexuality, we share almost all our genes with the other sex, and the biology of sexuality is very complex. Many of the hormones used as triggers of male and female sexuality are shared by both sexes. Sexuality and desire is also clearly influenced by the culture to which we are exposed to a significant degree. Is it really suprising that we end up with a wide variety of behaviors and people with different tastes?

[Valmy]

that heterosexual men fear homosexual men would behave the same way towards them as they do towards women.

Why would I fear that?  I am putty in women's cute little shapely hands curse me.

[Faeelin]

What do you think of the notion that homosexuality recurs as a method of preventing potentially destabilizing male-vs-male sexual conflict?

I think homosexuality could enhance male-vs-male sexual conflict; now in addition to competing with other males for women, males have to worry about competing with other males for each other, not to mention the possibility of being sexually coerced by other men.

Actually, IMO it wouldn't be leading to competition for males. If we are anything like our primate kindred, it would be a way for lower ranking males to gain favors from the more dominant ones.

[Valmy]

Sexuality and desire is also clearly influenced by the culture to which we are exposed to a significant degree.

Meh.  I am definitely more in the nature over nurture camp.  I guess I could be brainwashed to be sexually attracted to badgers...but I have a hard time seeing it.

[Malthus]

What do you think of the notion that homosexuality recurs as a method of preventing potentially destabilizing male-vs-male sexual conflict?

I think homosexuality could enhance male-vs-male sexual conflict; now in addition to competing with other males for women, males have to worry about competing with other males for each other, not to mention the possibility of being sexually coerced by other men.

That doesn't make much sense, really.

Sexual competition for men is not exclusive - unlike women, we do not get pregnant so there is no biological limit on the number of sexual partners we can have.

As for sexual coercion of men by men, I believe that in environments where women are available, it is practically non-existent. I think your post just displays what I think the basis for homophobia is - that heterosexual men fear homosexual men would behave the same way towards them as they do towards women.

Men practically never sexually coerce each other when women are available? That's ... news to me. 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=LGZRuseil-gC&dq=sexual+assault+males&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=j-WCSsvQO4reMab04aYL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#v=onepage&q=sexual%20assault%20males&f=false

http://jiv.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/19/8/901

Men don't get jealous of or compete with other men? 

I think your post just displays what I think the basis for homophobia is - that heterosexual men fear homosexual men would behave the same way towards them as they do towards women.

And I think your post displays what I think is the fact you have a bit of a screw loose on the subject.

[alfred russel]

Sexuality and desire is also clearly influenced by the culture to which we are exposed to a significant degree.

Meh.  I am definitely more in the nature over nurture camp.  I guess I could be brainwashed to be sexually attracted to badgers...but I have a hard time seeing it.

I know this is the stereotype everyone refers to, but I have absolutely no interest in having a relationship with an adolescent boy. I think most in our society feel the same way. However, there are societies where that has not been the case in the past, and presumably we share the same genetic makeup. Similarly, ideas about beauty have also changed quite a bit over the years.

I'm not sure this is true--so I'm tossing it out there to see if anyone else can verify/disprove--but I've got the idea in my head that there is/was a primitive tribe that had a virtual cultural ban on heterosexual activity (only allowed a few days during the year), to the extent they had to kidnap neighboring children to maintain their numbers.

[Valmy]

I know this is the stereotype everyone refers to, but I have absolutely no interest in having a relationship with an adolescent boy. I think most in our society feel the same way. However, there are societies where that has not been the case in the past, and presumably we share the same genetic makeup. Similarly, ideas about beauty have also changed quite a bit over the years.

Blah blah blah.  They have not changed that much.  Greek statues seem pretty sexy to me.  Likewise if I was in a society where pederasty was something you did I would do it, though it would probably not be my first choice of a sexual partner.  Anyway Greek society usually kinda had you go that way because the genders were so rigidly segregated by culture and custom.  Gay men also used to take wives and make babies, it was not what they really wanted to do but they did it anyway, it does not mean they suddenly became heteros.

I still do not really see that what society expects you to do is necessarily what you prefer.

I'm not sure this is true--so I'm tossing it out there to see if anyone else can verify/disprove--but I've got the idea in my head that there is/was a primitive tribe that had a virtual cultural ban on heterosexual activity (only allowed a few days during the year), to the extent they had to kidnap neighboring children to maintain their numbers.

Wouldn't surprise me.  Societies have been putting bans on sex forever.  Heck our society made bans on all sexual activity for certain people.  That does not mean suddenly these people stopped wanting sex just because of society pressure.

[HVC]

I know this is the stereotype everyone refers to, but I have absolutely no interest in having a relationship with an adolescent boy. I think most in our society feel the same way. However, there are societies where that has not been the case in the past, and presumably we share the same genetic makeup. Similarly, ideas about beauty have also changed quite a bit over the years.

Blah blah blah.  They have not changed that much.  Greek statues seem pretty sexy to me.  Likewise if I was in a society where pederasty was something you did I would do it, though it would probably not be my first choice of a sexual partner.  Anyway Greek society usually kinda had you go that way because the genders were so rigidly segregated by culture and custom.  Gay men also used to take wives and make babies, it was not what they really wanted to do but they did it anyway, it does not mean they suddenly became heteros.

I still do not really see that what society expects you to do is necessarily what you prefer.

It seems easier to get people to do what they're not naturally inclined to do rather then stopping people from doing what they really want to do.

[Berkut]

What do you think of the notion that homosexuality recurs as a method of preventing potentially destabilizing male-vs-male sexual conflict?

I wonder what the mechanism for expressing that tendency via evolution would be?

Evolution is based on natural selection based on survival of the more fit - how would nature go about selecting in such a manner?

If natural selection was going to select against "male-vs-male sexual conflict", that would mean...that it was no longer selecting at all, which is in fact the very basis of natural selection! Males competing amongst themselves for mates is what largely drives animal selection - how would it be evolutionarily beneficial to suppress that?

And even if it was beneficial, it seems like having the rare, ostracized, non-procreating (or less procreating), gay man show up now and again would be an astoundingly vague and ineffective way to express such a benefit, as opposed to simply selecting for males who are not as inclined to engage in "male-vs-male sexual conflict".

[garbon]

In struggling, undeveloped, high child mortality societies you could apply various pressures to make them reproduce.

Which has actually historically happened.

You think that societies that are not permissive of homosexuality do so because they are worried about dying out?

[Malthus]

In struggling, undeveloped, high child mortality societies you could apply various pressures to make them reproduce.

Which has actually historically happened.

You think that societies that are not permissive of homosexuality do so because they are worried about dying out?

If we stopped persecuting the gays, *everyone* would want to do go gay. 

Or at least, i get that impression from the religiously anti-gay folks.

[Valmy]

If we stopped persecuting the gays, *everyone* would want to do go gay. 

Or at least, i get that impression from the religiously anti-gay folks.

Yeah they act like it is some strong temptation to go gay and only persecution keeps us in line...it kinda makes me think they are either gay themselves or not straight.

[Malthus]

If we stopped persecuting the gays, *everyone* would want to do go gay. 

Or at least, i get that impression from the religiously anti-gay folks.

Yeah they act like it is some strong temptation to go gay and only persecution keeps us in line...it kinda makes me think they are either gay themselves or not straight.

A mere glance at a scantily-clothed woman* quickly disabuses me of the notion that such strictures are necessary. 



*Footnote: "attractive". 

[Neil]

Plenty of gays end up reproducing.

And yet their offspring is no more likely to be gay than offspring of straight people, which is the point I am trying to make.

So your point is that being gay is a choice, and that we can treat it like we treat other disorders?