Israel-Hamas War 2023

[DGuller]

Its not the Israel is always wrong no matter what fringe who they have to win around. It's all the others they've been doing their best to alienate lately. A far more significant group which runs most of the west.

I think even now most of the people "alienated" by Israel are in the first group.  Let's not give cover to people who have finally found an accepted outlet to the bigotry they harbored all along.

[Josquius]

Its not the Israel is always wrong no matter what fringe who they have to win around. It's all the others they've been doing their best to alienate lately. A far more significant group which runs most of the west.

I think even now most of the people "alienated" by Israel are in the first group.  Let's not give cover to people who have finally found an accepted outlet to the bigotry they harbored all along.

That's just daft.
It's perfectly possible to have criticisms of Israels current operations without being an anti semite.

[OttoVonBismarck]

No one says it isn't possible, what we are saying is we have eyes and ears. This war has green lit a massive wave of antisemitic bigotry in the West and it is quite obvious the mask is off for lots of people. It has shown us Palestinian Arabs can never be trusted as immigrants, they are forever committed to Islamic extremism. It has shown us many far lefties are antisemites.

[Razgovory]

Its not the Israel is always wrong no matter what fringe who they have to win around. It's all the others they've been doing their best to alienate lately. A far more significant group which runs most of the west.

I think even now most of the people "alienated" by Israel are in the first group.  Let's not give cover to people who have finally found an accepted outlet to the bigotry they harbored all along.

I think that a lot of leftwing people don't start out antisemitic, but move in that direction as a consequence of their activism.  The Pro-Pal movement is a gateway to Jew-hate.  I've also notice that the Pro-Pal movement has changed a lot in the last 20 years.  They are much more hateful and accepting of violence then they were in the past.  You just didn't see stuff things like this back then.

[Josquius]

No one says it isn't possible, what we are saying is we have eyes and ears. This war has green lit a massive wave of antisemitic bigotry in the West and it is quite obvious the mask is off for lots of people. It has shown us Palestinian Arabs can never be trusted as immigrants, they are forever committed to Islamic extremism. It has shown us many far lefties are antisemites.

There definitely has been an uptick in anti semitism.
There has also been a huge uptick in people labelling any criticism, or even just failure to support, as anti semitic lunacy in line with Islamic extremists.

Like most things Israel and Palestine whenever I read articles about anti semitic controversies these days it tends to be  a real cunts on both sides issue that calls for slaps all round. It's simply cringe worthy.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I agree with that narrative Raz, I suspect very few left/progressives who become Pro-Pal activists start off antisemitic, but once you are in that culture it becomes part of the "language."

I think we have seen how common that language is with how Ilhan Omar got in trouble with some imprecise word usage about Jews a few years back, I strongly suspect she was clumsily using language that is likely very common among her circle, but that she likely understands isn't acceptable outside of it--but when you talk a certain way around your inner circle all the time it is unsurprising when you slip up and say it in public.

I saw a poll not long ago that in Britain, 65% of Muslims under age 25 believe Israel does not have the right to exist. This is much higher than was found for older groups, middle aged and older British Muslims held that view at around a 35-40% clip (still high), but to me it shows online rhetoric among young Palestinian activists has created a culture of acceptance of antisemitic phrases and rhetoric.

[Valmy]

I agree with that narrative Raz, I suspect very few left/progressives who become Pro-Pal activists start off antisemitic, but once you are in that culture it becomes part of the "language."

Yep. Antisemites are very good at utilizing pro-Palestinians to advance antisemitic ideas.

[Iormlund]

Even if Israel was 100% certain this guy aiding terrorists was working in a consulate, bombing the consulate was still a dumb move.
Instantly destroys Israel being entirely legitimate in the killing and makes Iran the victim.
They should have took more of a PR focussed approach to show Iran were the ones breaking international law and if they really had to bomb something, hit the guy when he was out of the embassy or if the embassy itself was the issue warn about the incoming missile before hand.

If you consider a Quds commander a victim you're probably a lost cause already and would have sided with Iran anyway.

.

He wasn't the only one in the embassy.
That's the point.

The embassy building was not hit. The target was an annex being used by Iran and Hizbollah.
According to Syrian/Iranian sources, only two out of 16 fatalities were civilian. I doubt a (series of) strike(s) on the streets would have been as clean.

[crazy canuck]

No one says it isn't possible, what we are saying is we have eyes and ears. This war has green lit a massive wave of antisemitic bigotry in the West and it is quite obvious the mask is off for lots of people. It has shown us Palestinian Arabs can never be trusted as immigrants, they are forever committed to Islamic extremism. It has shown us many far lefties are antisemites.

Really not one of you took issue with anything Otto said.  Some of you even tacitly agreed with him that no Palestinians can be trusted.

This is disgusting and I won't be part of this group any longer.

[viper37]

I think both sides will just lob a few bombs. Both leaders look good to their people.  Civilians will die, but neither seem to care. Won't escalate beyond that. I freely admit I could be way, way off

This is the likely scenario.

If Iran had wanted to really hurt Israel, they would not have warned them in advance of the attack, and they would not have used drones launching from Iran that take 7-8 hours to reach their target and a few easy to shoot down ballistic missiles announced on public television, again, all easy to intercept by US forces in the area and current Israel's defence capabilities.

Iran does not want to suffer a regime change, so they won't go all in on Israel, but they had to strike back after Israel bomb their embassy.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Both ends of the political spectrum will tacitly approve antisemitism. Hate is a good motivator and they are a small enough minority that it is a safe bet.

[Razgovory]

No one says it isn't possible, what we are saying is we have eyes and ears. This war has green lit a massive wave of antisemitic bigotry in the West and it is quite obvious the mask is off for lots of people. It has shown us Palestinian Arabs can never be trusted as immigrants, they are forever committed to Islamic extremism. It has shown us many far lefties are antisemites.

Really not one of you took issue with anything Otto said.  Some of you even tacitly agreed with him that no Palestinians can be trusted.

This is disgusting and I won't be part of this group any longer.

Nobody agreed with Otto here.   In fact, I like the Palestinians here better than over there.  It's kinda like Irish immigrants, they hated the UK so much they were constantly agitating for war against Britain in the 19th century.  Hell, they even attacked, well, YOU.  It's just something we have to put up with for now.  Eventually they'll get it out of their blood.

[Darth Wagtaros]

No one says it isn't possible, what we are saying is we have eyes and ears. This war has green lit a massive wave of antisemitic bigotry in the West and it is quite obvious the mask is off for lots of people. It has shown us Palestinian Arabs can never be trusted as immigrants, they are forever committed to Islamic extremism. It has shown us many far lefties are antisemites.

Really not one of you took issue with anything Otto said.  Some of you even tacitly agreed with him that no Palestinians can be trusted.

This is disgusting and I won't be part of this group any longer.

Spare me the histrionics and fuck off.  I don't read every fucking message.

[grumbler]

I think this is probably right.  Iran has to explain why the commander of the Quds Force was working out of purportedly civilian consulate. The NYT reported there was a meeting with Palestinian militants at the time of the strike, and the casualty reports from the Syrian side support that. Israel hitting inside Syria is a bit dodgy but the ultimate cause of the murky situation is Syria and Iran's mutual footsie with Hezbollah and allied militants.

I don't think that Iran is obligated to explain to the international community the movements and intentions of its military members any more than the US is.  There is no such thing as a "civilian consulate" (or embassy).  Consulates and embassies are the sovereign territory of their accredited home countries, and pretty much every country has military members of its diplomatic missions.

Bombing the embassies of hostile countries in third nations is not in accordance with international law and sends a message of lack of respect for international norms.  It's worse than a crime:  it's a mistake.

[Admiral Yi]

Even if Israel was 100% certain this guy aiding terrorists was working in a consulate, bombing the consulate was still a dumb move.
Instantly destroys Israel being entirely legitimate in the killing and makes Iran the victim.
They should have took more of a PR focussed approach to show Iran were the ones breaking international law and if they really had to bomb something, hit the guy when he was out of the embassy or if the embassy itself was the issue warn about the incoming missile before hand.

What international law or laws is Iran breaking?