Would you work at Amazon?

[Martinus]

I understand that lawyers can work long and hard, but generally it's about making sure your clients get the representation they require, not so much about optimizing yourself and your lawyering processes (not saying it's not happening, but I'm not sure if that is the or even a major item on your agenda).

You would be surprised. Not just in my firm, but in pretty much all international law firms, we are constantly under pressure for meeting key performance targets such as utilization (the number of hours billed) and recovery (the amount the firm actually recovers per your our billed, expressed as percentage of your standard billing rate). You are also expected to be efficient (that is why a lot of investment is put into automatisation, outsourcing and templates these days), and to a varying degree bring in work (i.e. devote your "free", non-billable time to business developments, relationship meetings with clients and the like).

And in consultancies such as PWC or EY this is much much worse. My colleague worked for a while for a EY law firm (the big four are now starting those so they can do some of their legal work in house). At my level of seniority, he was not expected to actually do any legal work at all - just supervise, manage his underlings, get work from clients and optimise the efficiency of his group.

And I am not even talking about partners here.

[Warspite]

I am guessing the average lawyer at a big firm gets paid rather more than a warehouse staffer at Amazon.

[Norgy]

I am guessing the average lawyer at a big firm gets paid rather more than a warehouse staffer at Amazon.

I'd be willing to wager that's true.

Amazon's just another employer determined to cut costs and generally suck the life out of their employees. The word "sweatshop" somehow sprung to mind.

[Valmy]

It is kind of too bad we cannot have a culture like that working towards things more important than delivering retail shit to people. I mean why does it matter I got my gizmo in two days instead of four? It is not like Amazon is delivering emergency medical products.

[Norgy]

It is kind of too bad we cannot have a culture like that working towards things more important than delivering retail shit to people. I mean why does it matter I got my gizmo in two days instead of four? It is not like Amazon is delivering emergency medical products.

Because we can't have nice things in the world of employment.
You're either a bored-out-your-skull public employee or you work for a vampiric cult determined to turn your intestines and brain into profit.

[Caliga]

A consultant who used to work for me moved to Seattle about five years ago and landed a job at Amazon, and all of this in the article sounds very familiar to me based on her feedback.

She now works for the Gates Foundation.  She was at Amazon less than a year IIRC.

[Syt]

A short follow up from the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/technology/amazon-bezos-workplace-management-practices.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Amazon's Jeff Bezos Defends Workplace in Response to Article

Amazon said late Sunday that it would not tolerate the "shockingly callous management practices" described in an article in The New York Times over the weekend. Jeff Bezos, the retail giant's founder and chief executive, said he did not recognize the workplace portrayed in the article and urged any employees who knew of "stories like those reported" to contact him directly.

"Even if it's rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero," Mr. Bezos said in an email circulated to all the retailer's employees.

The article gave accounts of workers who suffered from cancer, miscarriages and other personal crises who said they had been evaluated unfairly or edged out rather than given time to recover in Amazon's intense and fast-paced workplace.

Mr. Bezos wrote that he "very much" hoped workers did not recognize the workplace depicted in the article — "a soulless, dystopian workplace where no fun is had and no laughter heard."

At Amazon, the article said, the winners get the thrill of testing new projects with hundreds of millions of customers. They also become rich through a stock that has increased tenfold since 2008. But the losers are pushed out in regular cullings. One former Amazon human resources director called it "purposeful Darwinism."

Amazon declined a request to interview Mr. Bezos for the original article, but made several executives available. Over all, The Times interviewed over 100 current and former Amazon employees, including many who spoke on the record and some who requested anonymity because they had signed agreements saying they would not speak to the press.

Mr. Bezos urged his 180,000 employees to give the Times article "a careful read" but said it "doesn't describe the Amazon I know or the caring Amazonians I work with every day."

Amazon and Mr. Bezos have also circulated an account on LinkedIn by Nick Ciubotariu, an Amazon engineer and manager, describing his 18 months of experience at the company.

Like many of the Amazon employees quoted in The Times article, Mr. Ciubotariu describes strengths of the workplace, including focus on customers and innovation. However, some of his assertions were incorrect, including a statement that the company does not cull employees on an annual basis. An Amazon spokesman previously confirmed that the company manages out a pre-determined percentage of its workforce every year. The engineer also quotes an unnamed senior executive telling an all-hands meeting, "Amazon used to burn a lot of people into the ground."

The text of Mr. Bezos's letter:

Dear Amazonians,

If you haven't already, I encourage you to give this (very long) New York Times article a careful read: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html

I also encourage you to read this very different take by a current Amazonian: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/amazonians-response-inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-nick-ciubotariu

Here's why I'm writing you. The NYT article prominently features anecdotes describing shockingly callous management practices, including people being treated without empathy while enduring family tragedies and serious health problems. The article doesn't describe the Amazon I know or the caring Amazonians I work with every day. But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at [email protected]. Even if it's rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero.

The article goes further than reporting isolated anecdotes. It claims that our intentional approach is to create a soulless, dystopian workplace where no fun is had and no laughter heard. Again, I don't recognize this Amazon and I very much hope you don't, either. More broadly, I don't think any company adopting the approach portrayed could survive, much less thrive, in today's highly competitive tech hiring market. The people we hire here are the best of the best. You are recruited every day by other world-class companies, and you can work anywhere you want.

I strongly believe that anyone working in a company that really is like the one described in the NYT would be crazy to stay. I know I would leave such a company.

But hopefully, you don't recognize the company described. Hopefully, you're having fun working with a bunch of brilliant teammates, helping invent the future, and laughing along the way.

Thank you,

Jeff

[Berkut]

I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.

Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle, and honestly, I would not want a job where the expectation is that the job is that high a priority in my life compared to all other activities I am involved in - like family (of course), but also officiating and other hobbies. I don't think a high pressure job like Amazon would fit with my personal priorities.

Articles like this tend to take a kernel of truth and exaggerate them for effect, and provide only a singular view in order to construct the narrative desired. I don't doubt that Amazon is pretty hard core, but as Bezo's said, it can't be anywhere near as bad as the article makes out. Tech people are notoriously dickish about simply moving along if they don't like the way they are being treated.

[Martinus]

I am guessing the average lawyer at a big firm gets paid rather more than a warehouse staffer at Amazon.

I had an impression this article was not about warehouse staffers but about mid-management. I doubt many warehouse staffers attend a lot out-of-town business meetings, for example, or are expected to answer emails over weekends.

[Warspite]

You're right, I should have read the article before replying. 

That said, I know the warehouse staff are worked rather hard too (as in, given physical distance targets measured through tracking devices).

I guess Amazon must pay well enough to attract these people.

[derspiess]

In some places there is a lot of competition for Amazon warehouse jobs.  I know a couple people who work or have worked there and they had no complaints above the standard "work sucks" one.

[katmai]

I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.

Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,

What is wrong with you?!??!

[garbon]

I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.

Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,

What is wrong with you?!??!

???

[katmai]

I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.

Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,

What is wrong with you?!??!

???

We already know what is wrong with you.

[derspiess]

Seattle is a nice place to visit.