The Off Topic Topic

[Valmy]

Yeah. It doesn't seem that long ago as I was an adult, sort of, at the time. It seems weird now it is such a distant time that people hardly seem interested in talking about it anymore.

I mean, I have an employee who wasn't born until after 9/11. 

Yeah. Somebody in their 30s was a little kid that day. That's weird to think about.

[Jacob]

It genuinely took me a few moments to recognize what you were talking about

Recalling how intense and monumental it felt at the time and in the aftermath, and then why it's faded I have a couple of thoughts:

1. There's the simple passage of time and, as a garbon and Valmy pointed out, there has been other watershed moments like the financial crisis and covid. Personally I'd add the war in Ukraine and the Hamas terror attacks to that list - both of them gave me the same "oh no, holy shit" feeling that 9/11 did - and we're still seeing those events play out right now.

2. There's no major political faction or tendency that benefits from memorializing 9/11, nor is there a clear simple narrative to latch on to and propagate. In the short term, the attacks triggered a kind of national and international unity that is anathema to the currently ascendant reactionary right. In the medium term it set into motion the series of events that exposed the weakness and rot in American and Western power and institutions.

[Josquius]

9/11 is more relevant than ever with America currently giving itself the same treatment it gave Chile.

[Norgy]

I wasn't born 9/11 1973.

The events, however, were told and re-told by my father time after time. We had Chileans coming here.
One of my friends is Chilean. Those on the "wrong" side of the coup will never forget or forgive, of that I am sure.

Allende wasn't perfect. But his last stand was so brave, so inspirational that it made the whole world look.
And, when you're born into a working class family, Allende is one of those you look up to. Not that I had posters of him. I had a world map and the flags of all the countries in the world above my bed. And my dad did not read me "Das Kapital" but rather Astrid Lindgren or my favourite "Winnie the Pooh".

I think, with my very imperfect mind, we have had three huge crunches against our world-view after 1980.
The end of the cold war, that happened so rapidly. Die Mauer fell.
9/11 2001.
The financial crisis.

A fourth shock, is of course Donald J. Trump.

How Evangelicals can see him as a Cyrus is beyond me.

[Sheilbh]

It genuinely took me a few moments to recognize what you were talking about

Recalling how intense and monumental it felt at the time and in the aftermath, and then why it's faded I have a couple of thoughts:

1. There's the simple passage of time and, as a garbon and Valmy pointed out, there has been other watershed moments like the financial crisis and covid. Personally I'd add the war in Ukraine and the Hamas terror attacks to that list - both of them gave me the same "oh no, holy shit" feeling that 9/11 did - and we're still seeing those events play out right now.

2. There's no major political faction or tendency that benefits from memorializing 9/11, nor is there a clear simple narrative to latch on to and propagate. In the short term, the attacks triggered a kind of national and international unity that is anathema to the currently ascendant reactionary right. In the medium term it set into motion the series of events that exposed the weakness and rot in American and Western power and institutions.

It is still an enormous human tragedy, of course.

But I think a really important reason is that it was, in retrospect, relatively inconsequential. I don't think much changed and certainly not almost 25 years on. Compared to how it felt in that moment, I think what it "caused" looking back after 25 years is a lot less than we would have thought. I don't think it's a pivot point, I don't think everything changed - and I think it felt at that point that it was and it had.

[Jacob]

But I think a really important reason is that it was, in retrospect, relatively inconsequential. I don't think much changed and certainly not almost 25 years on. Compared to how it felt in that moment, I think what it "caused" looking back after 25 years is a lot less than we would have thought. I don't think it's a pivot point, I don't think everything changed - and I think it felt at that point that it was and it had.

Hard disagree from me.

Personally I think it's a significant pivot point, in that it kicked off the transition period between the Post-WWII world order, and the destruction of that world order (and the US domestic order) we're witnessing right now.

[crazy canuck]

It genuinely took me a few moments to recognize what you were talking about

Recalling how intense and monumental it felt at the time and in the aftermath, and then why it's faded I have a couple of thoughts:

1. There's the simple passage of time and, as a garbon and Valmy pointed out, there has been other watershed moments like the financial crisis and covid. Personally I'd add the war in Ukraine and the Hamas terror attacks to that list - both of them gave me the same "oh no, holy shit" feeling that 9/11 did - and we're still seeing those events play out right now.

2. There's no major political faction or tendency that benefits from memorializing 9/11, nor is there a clear simple narrative to latch on to and propagate. In the short term, the attacks triggered a kind of national and international unity that is anathema to the currently ascendant reactionary right. In the medium term it set into motion the series of events that exposed the weakness and rot in American and Western power and institutions.

It is still an enormous human tragedy, of course.

But I think a really important reason is that it was, in retrospect, relatively inconsequential. I don't think much changed and certainly not almost 25 years on. Compared to how it felt in that moment, I think what it "caused" looking back after 25 years is a lot less than we would have thought. I don't think it's a pivot point, I don't think everything changed - and I think it felt at that point that it was and it had.

Oh my where to start.

Before I launch into how it profoundly changed the US, let's clarify something. Are you taking about just the UK or perhaps just Europe?

[Sheilbh]

More the world and don't feel any need to start if you don't want to.

I think it was a huge human tragedy and had a devastating human cost for Iraq and Afghanistan also. But it felt like a moment that would change everything and I really don't think it did - which I think is partly why it's faded. It's become a tragic event which should be commemorated rather than a turning point which has a continuing relevance or consequences.

[crazy canuck]

It fundamentally changed the US and the creation of the security state.

Why do you say that it was "relatively inconsequential"

[Josquius]

I would agree it's immediate impact tends to be overstated.
There was no pre 911 and post 911 world. Life largely continued as normal.
However it did have pretty big long term effects with Afghanistan and Iraq destabilising the middle east and really damaging American power, which could be said to be key in America and the world's current state.

For sure covid and the financial crisis were bigger and more world changing events themselves. Though they lack a single  point in time. Even as periods they don't really have beginnings and ends (a few possible beginnings.... )

[The Brain]

My impression is that it had a huge impact. It contributed greatly to the siege mentality of the US, with all its consequences.

[mongers]

My impression is that it had a huge impact. It contributed greatly to the siege mentality of the US, with all its consequences.

[Josquius]

The other week I went to a meeting of the local heritage society and got chatting to a retired train driver.

Look at this street view image.

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.9728245,-1.6067505,3a,75y,149.36h,85.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZ-9TfzXjD6abFvke4Gm3Ng!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.5099779058572835%26panoid%3DZ-9TfzXjD6abFvke4Gm3Ng%26yaw%3D149.35760691184228!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDkwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Notice the bottom left of the car park building, where it meets the bridge. The bricks are a different colour.

The reason... This is all I can find online...

https://shop.memorylane.co.uk/mirror/0400to0499-00429/trains-newcastle-cancelled-11th-february-1974-21645474.html#:~:text=Frame%2024%22x30%22-,Trains%20in%20and%20out%20of%20Newcastle%20were%20cancelled%20on%2011th,FREE%20COLOURIZATION

Trains in and out of Newcastle were cancelled on 11th February 1974 after three empty coal wagons jumped the track and dropped 20 ft. into the side of Manors car park. A total of 12 out of 41 trucks came off the lines. The train was on its way from Low Fell to West Blyth.

This was that train driver. Driving through Newcastle he lost his train at that point and didn't notice until he got to the depot many miles later.
Surprisingly he escaped without any punishment whatsoever.

I just find it really fascinating that you can still see the impact of this all those years later.

[crazy canuck]

I would agree it's immediate impact tends to be overstated.
There was no pre 911 and post 911 world. Life largely continued as normal.
However it did have pretty big long term effects with Afghanistan and Iraq destabilising the middle east and really damaging American power, which could be said to be key in America and the world's current state.

For sure covid and the financial crisis were bigger and more world changing events themselves. Though they lack a single  point in time. Even as periods they don't really have beginnings and ends (a few possible beginnings.... )

Life maybe continued as normal where ever you were at the time.  But not in the US.

[grumbler]

My impression is that it had a huge impact. It contributed greatly to the siege mentality of the US, with all its consequences.

It marked the point where Americans became willing to trade liberty for security, and that has had profound consequences.