The Off Topic Topic

[Razgovory]

I just looked a larger map of these.  Turkey and Peru have the same symbol, as does Paraguay and France.  I hope they never fight, they might forget who's on which side.

[grumbler]

Interesting.
Why did Austria use the iron Cross?
And does the use of roundels actually aid targeting? (I suspect not as they're so small, but I wonder if there's been a study showing a small blip)

Roundels were chosen because they could be so easily distinguished from the Central Powers crosses.

They are too small to be aids to targeting, especially as compared to the easy-to-distinguish point where the wings intersect the fuselage.

[Norgy]

I always found roundels confusing.  Sometimes the plane is camouflaged, but they still put colorful symbols on it?

It's to identify it for friendlies, really.

I live in a town where three people got Iron Crosses during World War II. Not sure if I am proud of that.

The Austrian-Hungarian military relied heavily on Germany after a while, so maybe that is where the iron cross comes from?

We can't all, like Blackadder, be in the Women's Auxilliary Balloon Corps.

[Tamas]

Wow.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/23/protests-as-newborn-removed-from-greenlandic-mother-after-parenting-competence-tests

So apparently in Denmark you need to take a cultural test to prove you are of mother material if you want to keep your newborn kid. They have recently removed this requirement for Greenlandic mothers on account of Inuits might not be well-versed in what Danes consider proper culture.

But this 18 years old lady born to fully Greenlandic parents but raised by a half-Greenlandic mother was told by the municipality that she was not "Greenlandic enough" to skip the test, which she failed, so no baby for her.

Sometimes I feel like I'd prefer the old school religion-based primary bigotry. Easier to pretend you have the correct beliefs than pretending you have the correct skin colour.

[Norgy]

You do know the Danish People's Party had quite an influence for a long time? Socialdemokratiet stole their voters back by being a few notches more identitarian and "Danish".

One good thing can be said about Norway's Labour Party. They never stooped that low.

[Jacob]

Wow.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/23/protests-as-newborn-removed-from-greenlandic-mother-after-parenting-competence-tests

So apparently in Denmark you need to take a cultural test to prove you are of mother material if you want to keep your newborn kid. They have recently removed this requirement for Greenlandic mothers on account of Inuits might not be well-versed in what Danes consider proper culture.

But this 18 years old lady born to fully Greenlandic parents but raised by a half-Greenlandic mother was told by the municipality that she was not "Greenlandic enough" to skip the test, which she failed, so no baby for her.

Sometimes I feel like I'd prefer the old school religion-based primary bigotry. Easier to pretend you have the correct beliefs than pretending you have the correct skin colour.

Every parent's nightmare

I'm curious, Tamas, what you think should be done differently? What is the appropriate set of policies to balance the need for protecting children while also acknowledging and addressing the systemic issues and inequalities affecting Greenlanders?

As I understand it, what exists is a process by which by which the authorities can remove a child if they believe the child is at risk if they stay with their parent(s) - the primary element being whether the parent can provide the necessary care. I think there's something similar in most developed countries.

What also exists is the reality that the Greenlander community has fairly high rates of social issues (drug addiction, sexual abuse, suicide being the ones most talked about). Generally this is considered a result of colonialism.

Historically, that has led to pattern of a much higher rate of removal for Greenlandish children, with a number of negative repercussions; potentially this has contributed to the high rate of social issues, creating a tragic self-reinforcing cycle. It's messed up, no doubt.

In an attempt to break that cycle - and in recognition that elements of the assessment for whether a child may be at serious risk if left with their parent may be culturally biased - if the parents in question are Greenlanders, they are exempt (I believe there may be a team of culturally aware experts called in or a different test of or something).

This woman (residing in Denmark, not Greenland) triggered possible concerns from the authorities - the particulars are covered by privacy acts, but from what's available in the media she's 18, a single mother, adopted, and a victim of sexual abuse as a child; whether that's sufficient in itself or whether other factors were present I don't know. The authorities applied that standard assessment process and found the child was at risk and proceeded accordingly.

The controversy in question is triggered because the authorities applied the standard test/ process applied when there are concerns, and not the exemption for Greenlanders.

So I'm curious - what should be done differently?

Should the authorities stop looking after the interests of children, and no longer assess parental fitness?

Should they do away with the different process for Greenlanders and apply the standard process to everyone? (Though, I note that in this case the mother in question desired the process for Greenlanders to be applied to her)?

Or do you have recommendations for how the assessment process should be altered, because in this case it produced the wrong outcome?

[Jacob]

You do know the Danish People's Party had quite an influence for a long time? Socialdemokratiet stole their voters back by being a few notches more identitarian and "Danish".

One good thing can be said about Norway's Labour Party. They never stooped that low.

I completely agree with your assessment of the Danish Social Democrats, but in this particular case I don't think there are many votes in any specific policy towards Greenland or the kind of social issues in question.

IMO there's a good faith effort to address the complex interactions of colonialism and long-standing cycles of abuse, addiction, and other social issues, and where those policies have failed it's less specific to any particular party and more down to the overall fucked up dynamic all up.

I'm curious - in Norway are the Sami peoples mostly unaffected by colonialism? And if there are issues, is how to address them a big deal to the mainstream political parties with significant differences between them?

I admit, I know next to nothing about the dynamics and am wondering what - if any - parallels there are.

[Josquius]

The whole thing of a parenting test or your baby gets took away is quite messed up.

There's definitely some parents out there where I can see a clear need for it.

But my god to have that extra stress at an already stressful time.... And what if you just suck at exams?

[Tamas]

Have people with the necessary skill access living circumstances of the familynand health of the child during routine vosits. Having a test decide if you can keep your child just sounds monstrous.

[Norgy]

I'm curious - in Norway are the Sami peoples mostly unaffected by colonialism? And if there are issues, is how to address them a big deal to the mainstream political parties with significant differences between them?

I admit, I know next to nothing about the dynamics and am wondering what - if any - parallels there are.

Historically, Sami people had a lot more grazing land than today. It has shrunk considerably. Sami people are not necessarily traditionalist. They are programmers and politicians, TV stars and alcoholics. Only a small proportion to those claiming Sami heritage really do the whole reindeer pasturing thing.

The northern part of Norway is at best sparsely populated, so the Sami people weren't displaced, but the Norwegian government wanted to make them Norwegian.

This, in the 20th century, led to a policy much like against the indigenous peoples of North America. Children were removed from their parents and placed in schools were they had to live and renounce their language.

We never had a huge amount of tension, but there were rebellions in the 19th and 20th century.

The most significant one in my lifetime was against a hydroelectric plant in the Alta river (which is one of the best salmon rivers in Norway, as wild salmon goes). The Sami people gathered a lot of sympathy and support then. It was in 1980, I think.

I would say it is hard to tell Sami people from "Norwegians" nowadays. The Sami nation has its own parliament, mostly legislating the pasture rights and speaking up for the minority's rights against the Storting.

This is by no means the definite edition of Norway and the Sami people, but as you probably know, some conflicts dating back to the 12th and 13th century between the crowns of Norway and Sweden were regarding who had the right to tax the Sami where.
After a while, I believe both crowns said "Meh, fuck it".

[crazy canuck]

Have people with the necessary skill access living circumstances of the familynand health of the child during routine vosits. Having a test decide if you can keep your child just sounds monstrous.

That was a process that created a lot of problems.  The person visiting the home then has subjective arbitrary power.  In the Canadian context that resulted a large number of Indigenous kids being removed from their homes.

My guess is this is the Danish attempt to create a more objective standard.

[Sheilbh]

I think until recently it included psychometric testing which isn't reliable for anything more than LinkedIn astrology.

A lot of the positions here remind me of Dan Davies' The Unaccountability Machine:
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2024/07/the-end-of-accountability

[Razgovory]

I thought the Sami people came after the Indo-Europeans.

[Josquius]

No. Though apparently that's a myth certain Scandinavians feel very strongly about.
Also not sure of the relevance either way.

[Norgy]

I thought the Sami people came after the Indo-Europeans.

No, they are genetically more in line with the original people of western Russia.
And who came first is really a moot question, as we have co-existed for thousands of years.