The Off Topic Topic

[Valmy]

I guess this will really confuse post-modern French leftists who see the Marseillaise as a right-wing symbol. 

Watering your fields with the impure blood of tyrants is now a right wing thing to do? Have the leftists all become monarchists now?

[Sheilbh]

England "stealing" the British anthem doesn't help either in the perception of the UK being little more than England plus some random attachments.

Yeah it doesn't help with perceptions of Britishness in Scotland or Wales either. And it's a bit of a dirge - Flower of Scotland and Land of my Fathers are far more stirring.

I'm going to chalk down to British weirdness that you use as a patriotic song what basically sounds like a church hymn. And that it's a song associated with Labour makes it even weirder (Satanic mills!).

It is a hymn I think - I mean it's not really describing anything that happens in the Bible because it's William Blake so it's part of his weird mystical/theological world (God is a negative repressive figure, Satan is the voice of liberty but also materialism, Jesus is divine human imagination that we're all part of - and I could be wrong because its' been a long time but I think they're brothers ) and describe a very apocryphal story about Joseph of Aramathea taking Christ as a child to visit England (they went to Glastonbury). So it is definitely a hymn but I could see some churches having issues singing it

But it's been picked up by various political movements in the UK - especially Labour but also the Suffragettes. Mainly for the stanza about not ceasing mental fight or letting the sword sleep until we have built a new Jerusalem (Labour's election slogan in 1945). And dark satanic mills still definitely shapes perceptions of the industrial revolution - probably fairly.

[Tamas]

And dark satanic mills still definitely shapes perceptions of the industrial revolution - probably fairly.

Yeah what an unmitigated disaster that turned out to be.

[The Larch]

And dark satanic mills still definitely shapes perceptions of the industrial revolution - probably fairly.

Yeah what an unmitigated disaster that turned out to be.

Well, there's always been a streak in English mentality that reacts against industry and idealizes the rural (in Jerusalem itself all the positive verses describe mountains, hills and pastures and ends up mentioning "England's green and pleasant land"), from Luddites to Tolkien's pastoralism, opposition to technology (represented by Saruman) and longing for an ideal countryside.

[Sheilbh]

Well, there's always been a streak in English mentality that reacts against industry and idealizes the rural (in Jerusalem itself all the positive verses describe mountains, hills and pastures and ends up mentioning "England's green and pleasant land"), from Luddites to Tolkien's pastoralism, opposition to technology (represented by Saruman) and longing for an ideal countryside.

Yes. But that's not exactly from some purely abstract nostalgic place. Also the Luddites weren't rural idealists - they were skilled well-paid workers who were being put out of work because they were being replaced by machines that were often operated by women and children who were cheaper. It's a bit like the jobs that we've seen lost in the last few decades (and will see decline in the next few decades) due to automation.

There is a reason Engels described Manchester in the 1840s as "hell on earth" or even Booth did his poverty map of London. There's loads of incredible social history on life in industrial Britain and it's grim.

Something can be simultaneously good for the economy as a whole, very good for the people who are able to own or invest and awful for the people who live and work in it. Especially, I think, if a country's an early adopter - which the UK was in the industrial revolution.

[The Larch]

Well, there's always been a streak in English mentality that reacts against industry and idealizes the rural (in Jerusalem itself all the positive verses describe mountains, hills and pastures and ends up mentioning "England's green and pleasant land"), from Luddites to Tolkien's pastoralism, opposition to technology (represented by Saruman) and longing for an ideal countryside.

Yes. But that's not exactly from some purely abstract nostalgic place. Also the Luddites weren't rural idealists - they were skilled well-paid workers who were being put out of work because they were being replaced by machines that were often operated by women and children who were cheaper. It's a bit like the jobs that we've seen lost in the last few decades (and will see decline in the next few decades) due to automation.

There is a reason Engels described Manchester in the 1840s as "hell on earth" or even Booth did his poverty map of London. There's loads of incredible social history on life in industrial Britain and it's grim.

Something can be simultaneously good for the economy as a whole, very good for the people who are able to own or invest and awful for the people who live and work in it. Especially, I think, if a country's an early adopter - which the UK was in the industrial revolution.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't doubt at all that the conditions in the early industrial cities were dreadful. IIRC, life expectancy for city dwellers actually went down during those early industrial years in spite of the improved economic situation.

[Tamas]

Yeah I don't deny that there were hellish conditions, but nothing of our world would exist without the industrial revolution so I don't know how anyone could consider it a net negative.

[The Brain]

90s 3D games looked horrible compared to earlier 2D games, even if they laid the foundations for later 3D games. Something can be both horrible and the best way forward.

[Duque de Bragança]

I guess this will really confuse post-modern French leftists who see the Marseillaise as a right-wing symbol. 

Watering your fields with the impure blood of tyrants is now a right wing thing to do? Have the leftists all become monarchists now?

This very verse is most of the times completely miscontrued. Sang impur for them has a racist connotation.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I don't deny that there were hellish conditions, but nothing of our world would exist without the industrial revolution so I don't know how anyone could consider it a net negative.

Yeah absolutely - especially looking back and not having had to endure those conditions. And I'm not sure there's much difference between hellish conditions and dark satanic mills

But if I wanted a nuanced take I also wouldn't go to a permanently baked, revolutionary, mystic poet and artist

[Tamas]

Fair point 


BTW "anthem" translates to himnusz (as in "hymn") in Hungarian because our national anthem is the poem titled "Himnusz" a 19th century poem that cries over the endless bad fortune of the nation, in the format of a 16th century hymn.

[Sheilbh]

BTW "anthem" translates to himnusz (as in "hymn") in Hungarian because our national anthem is the poem titled "Himnusz" a 19th century poem that cries over the endless bad fortune of the nation, in the format of a 16th century hymn.

That does appear to be a theme in CEE. See also "Glory and Freedom of Ukraine Has not yet Perished" and "Poland is not yet Lost"

[Valmy]

I guess this will really confuse post-modern French leftists who see the Marseillaise as a right-wing symbol. 

Watering your fields with the impure blood of tyrants is now a right wing thing to do? Have the leftists all become monarchists now?

This very verse is most of the times completely miscontrued. Sang impur for them has a racist connotation.

Seriously? That is very creative. I guess I just presumed Sang Impur was a moral judgement not based on some racial pseudo-science which I don't think was even in existence in the late 18th century. Or that at that time the fact that the monarchs all came from the international king club meant their blood was insufficiently French or something. Huh.

[The Brain]

I guess this will really confuse post-modern French leftists who see the Marseillaise as a right-wing symbol. 

Watering your fields with the impure blood of tyrants is now a right wing thing to do? Have the leftists all become monarchists now?

This very verse is most of the times completely miscontrued. Sang impur for them has a racist connotation.

Seriously? That is very creative. I guess I just presumed Sang Impur was a moral judgement not based on some racial pseudo-science which I don't think was even in existence in the late 18th century. Or that at that time the fact that the monarchs all came from the international king club meant their blood was insufficiently French or something. Huh.

Rare footage of late 18th century French:

[Barrister]

BTW "anthem" translates to himnusz (as in "hymn") in Hungarian because our national anthem is the poem titled "Himnusz" a 19th century poem that cries over the endless bad fortune of the nation, in the format of a 16th century hymn.

That does appear to be a theme in CEE. See also "Glory and Freedom of Ukraine Has not yet Perished" and "Poland is not yet Lost"

I was always fond of the more literal translation of Ukraine's National Anthem "Ukraine is not yet dead".