5 stunning things about America's prison system

[Jacob]

Some of his facts are correct, and outrage is certainly justified.  What isn't justified is making shit up to try to make the story even more "stunning."

I can agree with this, grumbler.

Feels kind of weird.

[LaCroix]

I don't think one has to be particularly emotional to think it is a bad idea to jude a rape victim ho has been raped many times.

That said, are you saying in this new post that your first post was just a crass way of stating your incredulity at the facts being thrown out?

a few months ago my roommate drank a few shots, four mixed drinks, and a beer or two on an empty stomach and blacked out. she woke up and discovered she slept with a guy. she filed rape charges against him because at one point during the night she remembered he touched her drink, therefore thinking she had been drugged. i told this story to a female friend of mine, and my friend judged my roommate. this might be an extreme example, but there are other instances where i've seen women say, "she should have been more careful," etc. women judge female rape victims all the time. this happens quite often, even if it isn't kosher

no, i believed his claim. there's no reason for me not to

Is there really a meaningful difference between being raped by 18 people over 9 months vs 27?

is there a meaningful difference between someone being raped by one or two people over nine months vs 27? i think so

[Jacob]

It's not really accurate to call prisoners slave labor, though. Every prison system I'm familiar with getting to do any of those jobs is actually a privilege for the better behaved prisoners and they work to avoid infractions to get the opportunity to do those jobs.

My understanding is it's not just limited to license plates, but the reason it often is license plates is they are something that is very strictly not used in interstate commerce. My understanding is the low wages for prison workers would violate minimum wage laws if they worked on something that was part of interstate commerce (I'm fine with being corrected on that one if it isn't true.)

It's a great bit more than license plates - data and document conversion services, linens and mattresses, industrial products and storage solutions, call centres, furniture, solar panels and electronics recycling, signs, eyewear, apparel manufacturing (I believe they supply upwards of 90% of American military uniforms, for example).

You can check out the services offered here: https://www.unicor.gov/

[Jacob]

is there a meaningful difference between someone being raped by one or two people over nine months vs 27? i think so

At 27 times I'm guessing you're probably considered an easy target.

[grumbler]

It's a great bit more than license plates - data and document conversion services, linens and mattresses, industrial products and storage solutions, call centres, furniture, solar panels and electronics recycling, signs, eyewear, apparel manufacturing (I believe they supply upwards of 90% of American military uniforms, for example).

You can check out the services offered here: https://www.unicor.gov/

All of those potential products are for federal government agency purchase only and produced in federal prisons only.  The license plate thing is for state-run prisons.  Two totally different jurisdictions.

[The Brain]

is there a meaningful difference between someone being raped by one or two people over nine months vs 27? i think so

At 27 times I'm guessing you're probably considered an easy target.

Person != time.

[Jacob]

It's a great bit more than license plates - data and document conversion services, linens and mattresses, industrial products and storage solutions, call centres, furniture, solar panels and electronics recycling, signs, eyewear, apparel manufacturing (I believe they supply upwards of 90% of American military uniforms, for example).

You can check out the services offered here: https://www.unicor.gov/

All of those potential products are for federal government agency purchase only and produced in federal prisons only.  The license plate thing is for state-run prisons.  Two totally different jurisdictions.

Ah, I see. I missed that distinction.

[Jacob]

Business Insider article on clothing manufacturers losing contracts to FPI/Unicor and having to lay off workers as a result: http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-prison-labor-is-forcing-small-businesses-to-close-factories-2012-9

[grumbler]

Ah, I see. I missed that distinction.

That's because Kerrigan was disguising the distinction to try to spread the false belief that there is this 'prison-industrial complex' that uses prisoner slave labor to produce all kinds of products, incidentally putting millions of deserving Americans out of work.  He wants us to be stunned.

[garbon]

I don't think one has to be particularly emotional to think it is a bad idea to jude a rape victim ho has been raped many times.

That said, are you saying in this new post that your first post was just a crass way of stating your incredulity at the facts being thrown out?

a few months ago my roommate drank a few shots, four mixed drinks, and a beer or two on an empty stomach and blacked out. she woke up and discovered she slept with a guy. she filed rape charges against him because at one point during the night she remembered he touched her drink, therefore thinking she had been drugged. i told this story to a female friend of mine, and my friend judged my roommate. this might be an extreme example, but there are other instances where i've seen women say, "she should have been more careful," etc. women judge female rape victims all the time. this happens quite often, even if it isn't kosher

no, i believed his claim. there's no reason for me not to

I don't see how those examples have any bearing on this discussion. Those are all a far cry from judging someone who has been raped 27 times - unless you are questioning whether those rapes actually occurred. Generally though stating "what a bitch" is an odd way to do that.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Prison labor when its products are for the benefit of government arguably is good for the economy because it reduces the need for revenue to support the prison and/or the purchases of the products/services in question. Government spending can be stimulative sure, but it's no replacement for demand from the private markets and you can't just use government expenditures to make an economy work in the long term.

I'm not sure that offsetting some of the very high expense of housing an inmate by utilizing them as cheap labor to produce products for the government is a net negative for the economy even if it does result in some private sector layoffs. Those private sector jobs were ultimately dependent on high government outlays and were thus probably more akin to parasitic positions than actual productive ones.

[Razgovory]

I'm curious, is Ide of the opinion he should have simply been executed?  Cause we can still do that.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I was curious enough to research it...apparently the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) doesn't cover prisoners. So that is the first reason they aren't paid Federal minimum wage.

However, the Ashurst–Sumners Act, passed in 1935 specifically to get rid of prison monopolies on various government contracts, bans outright the interstate shipment of convict made goods. This is the primary reason license plates were so common, they are manufactured and "sold" all within State. Since the act only prohibits crossing interstate lines with the products for sale, just driving them across the border on a car isn't the same thing.

The Act did provide exemptions for various products and also allowed for an exemption where the product was being sold to the Federal Government, a not-for-profit, or another State or Local government.

In 1979 there was another Act that added some more exemptions, and also allowed for the direct sale of regular goods in interstate commerce but with the stipulation that prisoners used in the manufacture of those products must be paid a "prevailing wage" (not the Federal minimum wage, but the prevailing wage would often be higher.) Due to that requirement almost no prison goods are produced under that exemption as almost no prison wants to pay a prevailing wage, but there are some exceptions. I believe the call center prisoners may fall into that category.

[The Minsky Moment]

Interesting.  Didn't know about Ashurst-Summers, that makes sense now.

[Jacob]

Thanks Otto. That's somewhat less dire than I've been led to believe, but not exactly ideal either.