5 stunning things about America's prison system

[Ideologue]

The second one is pretty stupid.  They should have just gone with more black men are in prison than there were slaves in 1850, actually insisting prisoners are slaves is pushing it a bit.  Actually only the last one was shocking to me, the other facts while terrible are well known.

I didn't know there were (probably, stats on it being unreliable as they are) more male rape victims in America than female.

I am actually amazed they use prisoners for labor that extensively.  I guess I only thought they used them for some lame state tasks like making license plates, nothing that would actually compete with free labor (though I suppose if we had no prisons the state would have to open that license plate factory).

That one didn't shock me.  It's not called the prison-industrial complex for nothing.

[Valmy]

The sixth stunning thing about America's prisons is that there are people who will cherry-pick stories to present "5 stunning things' that are hyperbole and exaggeration.  The seventh stunning thing is that people on languish think the articles produced by those authors are worth reading.

So you think the facts that there is a problem with prison rape, there are lots of black men in prison, prison food is terrible, and American prisons use solitary confinement extensively are hyperbole and exaggeration?  Do tell.  Those are pretty well known.  I do not see how the most famous aspects of the American prison system are stunning to anybody who lives here but...

[Valmy]

I didn't know there were (probably, stats on it being unreliable as they are) more male rape victims in America than female.

I think that is nonsense.  But even if it is not, the fact that men in prison get raped a lot is hardly a shocker.

That one didn't shock me.  It's not called the prison-industrial complex for nothing.

I thought the whole 'prison-industrial complex' was debunked.  Putting productive work in the hands of prisoners, at the expense of law-abiding citizens is a real shit sandwich.  Not only do our tax dollars fund these horrible places but the lower classes get hit with cheap labor taking away jobs on the other end.

[Malthus]

Putting productive work in the hands of prisoners, at the expense of law-abiding citizens is a real shit sandwich.  Not only do our tax dollars fund these horrible places but the lower classes get hit with cheap labor taking away jobs on the other end.

... and the lack of paying jobs for lower-class types presumably drives more of them into crime, thus filling the prisons. It is win-win. 

[Jacob]

So you think the facts that there is a problem with prison rape, there are lots of black men in prison, prison food is terrible, and American prisons use solitary confinement extensively are hyperbole and exaggeration?  Do tell.  Those are pretty well known.  I do not see how the most famous aspects of the American prison system are stunning to anybody who lives here but...

I agree with grumbler that there was a tone of sensationalism to the article; but as I understand it the facts are correct and the outrage justified.

[Jacob]

Shockingly, someone in custodial restraint and who was victimized once was victimized over and over.

lots of people are victimized in prison. not everyone was raped by 27 other people

If you are in state custody, you should not be raped or abused at all. If it happens 27 times it's an indication of significant systemic, not individual, failure.

[Ideologue]

LaCroix will be a great defense atty.  "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, as you can see, this slut's skirt was short at the time of the alleged attack.  And since her genes have rendered her so small and defenseless, wasn't she clearly asking for it?"

[grumbler]

I agree with grumbler that there was a tone of sensationalism to the article; but as I understand it the facts are correct and the outrage justified.

Some of his facts are correct, and outrage is certainly justified.  What isn't justified is making shit up to try to make the story even more "stunning."

[grumbler]

LaCroix will be a great defense atty.  "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, as you can see, this slut's skirt was short at the time of the alleged attack.  And since her genes have rendered her so small and defenseless, wasn't she clearly asking for it?"

Wow.  Values like these are why all decent people hate lawyers.

[OttoVonBismarck]

It's not really accurate to call prisoners slave labor, though. Every prison system I'm familiar with getting to do any of those jobs is actually a privilege for the better behaved prisoners and they work to avoid infractions to get the opportunity to do those jobs.

My understanding is it's not just limited to license plates, but the reason it often is license plates is they are something that is very strictly not used in interstate commerce. My understanding is the low wages for prison workers would violate minimum wage laws if they worked on something that was part of interstate commerce (I'm fine with being corrected on that one if it isn't true.)

[LaCroix]

Do you think the best tactical decision is to try to defend your statement, or just admit it was a terrible joke?

LaCroix will be a great defense atty.  "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, as you can see, this slut's skirt was short at the time of the alleged attack.  And since her genes have rendered her so small and defenseless, wasn't she clearly asking for it?"

you're getting really emotional over this. plus, this is the second time you've twisted what i said. all i did was put myself in that guy's shoes and judge him for how he acted in his situation. he's definitely a victim, no doubt. but everyone judges on some level. you might not be judging this guy in this situation, but i guarantee that you have judged others in other situations

If you are in state custody, you should not be raped or abused at all. If it happens 27 times it's an indication of significant systemic, not individual, failure.

yes. abuse in prison systems is awful. terrible, really. it is a failure of the system. in a perfect world... etc. etc.

but there are levels of failure. the author used this extreme example and tried to suggest it occurs way more than it probably does with his "many victims are repeatedly raped. for example, this guy was raped by 27 different people in nine months!" it's dishonest.

[garbon]

I don't think one has to be particularly emotional to think it is a bad idea to jude a rape victim ho has been raped many times.

That said, are you saying in this new post that your first post was just a crass way of stating your incredulity at the facts being thrown out?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Is there really a meaningful difference between being raped by 18 people over 9 months vs 27?

[The Minsky Moment]

but the reason it often is license plates is they are something that is very strictly not used in interstate commerce. My understanding is the low wages for prison workers would violate minimum wage laws if they worked on something that was part of interstate commerce (I'm fine with being corrected on that one if it isn't true.)

Not sure but that doesn't seem right.  The manufacture of license plates presumably involves interstate commerce because at least some of the raw materials and equipment used comes from out-of-state.  And the plates themselves are given cross-state recognition and facilitate the transport of people and goods across state lines.

My guess is that prisoners are not considered "employees" under FLSA but that is also just a guess,

[grumbler]

It's not really accurate to call prisoners slave labor, though. Every prison system I'm familiar with getting to do any of those jobs is actually a privilege for the better behaved prisoners and they work to avoid infractions to get the opportunity to do those jobs.

My understanding is it's not just limited to license plates, but the reason it often is license plates is they are something that is very strictly not used in interstate commerce. My understanding is the low wages for prison workers would violate minimum wage laws if they worked on something that was part of interstate commerce (I'm fine with being corrected on that one if it isn't true.)

That's my understanding as well, and one of the things I am noting this guy appears to be making up.  "Slave Labor" is a more stunning phrase than "dishonest cunt."