What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[crazy canuck]

Nice security detail you have there. It would be a shame is something happened to it.

[Sheilbh]

Well, not surprising at all. Remember, we had an otherwise well informed member of language tell us not so long ago that the restrictions on raw milk where because of regulators caving in to big milk producers.

The disinformation age is not only upon us, but entirely entrenched.

Just @ me

FWIW I think we just disagree on some points. It's not an epistemological failure or a fall from grace but different perspectives. I think we agree on a lot but have quite different world views/perspectives (with all the positives and negatives that contains) so on other areas quite fundamental/to the root disagreements.

But I think it's absolutely the case that the FDA is a deeply compromised regulator, you just need to look at Empire of Pain and it's far from the only example. All regulators are at risk of capture and I think the evidence there is absolutely a revolving door between the FDA and the industries it regulates - I don't see any reason to think that doesn't apply to agrifood.

I think a regulator that bans brie and stichelton and tonka beans but mandates the washing of eggs in chlorine and allows washing poultry in chrlorine or enough preservatives that staples will only expire when Kingdom comes is one that has absolutely been captured by industry. I've no doubt that it is safe but I think that focus on "food safety" allows for lax standards elsewhere (to the benefit of big producers) and does come at the expense of food that is better and healthier.

Well it is a spectrum. This kind of insanity used to just be a tiny percentage of the far left. Like weirdos in California used to be anti-vaccine because they were not natural and shit. We are supposed to listen to our bodies and all that. But now it has busted containment and spread all through the right wing.

Naomi Klein's Doppelganger is really good on this and also the wellness/"momfluencer" crossover.

FWIW we still have the opposite issue here in that because we live on the American internet the anti-vaccine stuff is sen as being about the right wing. The areas with the lowest vaccination rates and London boroughs like Hackney (basically Portland, Oregon in vibe ) while the areas with the highest vaccination rate is in Brexit Britain Red Wall areas. So I think a strategy and discourse that's about Trump-voters in the red states is sub-optimal at addressing the actual issues.

But I think it's a mistake to be negatively polarised on this stuff. I think it's a bit like hostility/suspicion to the FBI or talking about masculinity - not doing it because the bad guys are doing it just vacates the field when there's very good reasons to complain about the FDA or FBI or worry about the state of boys. If we don't build it and contest it then it'll get taken over by Jordan Peterson and RFK Jr etc.

I think the left needs to be open to the crunchy New Age types, the terroir-enjoyers, the people still not over COINTELPRO etc. Don't go full McGovern - but you need a bit (and on purely electoral levels I do wonder if that slightly orthogonal strand/source of politics can help in unexpected areas simply by being less predictable).

[garbon]

None of that = raw milk is great, no?

[Sheilbh]

None of that = raw milk is great, no?

Raw milk cheese is - brie and stichelton. I'd also add raw milk yoghurt from a farmer's market is fantastic (edit: there's also a dairy stall in Borough Market with various raw milk products which are fantastic - great yoghurt and butter especially).

I'm just saying don't negatively polarise to the opposte it should just be allowed (in certain contexts and with its own regulations and risks identified) as it is in much of Europe including France, the UK etc. And there is a type of regulation - which I think the FDA absolutely does - that favours bigger producers, industrialised production and chemical processes. Often basically nuke it with chemicals to make it safe rather than making production clean and safe - which is the Euro model where the chemical interventions are banned which I think is healthier and better if, perhaps, less "safe".

[garbon]

Raw milk cheese is - brie and stichelton. I'd also add raw milk yoghurt from a farmer's market is fantastic (edit: there's also a dairy stall in Borough Market with various raw milk products which are fantastic - great yoghurt and butter especially).

I'm just saying don't negatively polarise to the opposte it should just be allowed (in certain contexts and with its own regulations and risks identified) as it is in much of Europe including France, the UK etc. And there is a type of regulation - which I think the FDA absolutely does - that favours bigger producers, industrialised production and chemical processes. Often basically nuke it with chemicals to make it safe rather than making production clean and safe - which is the Euro model where the chemical interventions are banned which I think is healthier and better if, perhaps, less "safe".

It looks like Blue Stilton is the more common form and that is traditionally from pasteurised milk.

It also looks like Brie (imported and I guess if we are so jazzed about artisnal foods, we must be talking importing from France, no?) from unpasteurised sources are largely banned in the UK.

Also, I see that Scotland is the one nation in UK that bans all raw milk for human consumption.

Here's what one cheesemonger says on their site:

https://www.londoncheesemongers.co.uk/pages/raw-milk-cheese-imports-from-france-italy?srsltid=AfmBOoo2z3kiPBXxMMaeYvmtt9yDW3RirqG5tAWsWTdNscNVEZORhmFs

Suspension of Raw Milk Cheese Imports from France & Italy
The import of raw milk cheeses from France and Italy into the UK are currently suspended by the government.

In late June 2025, outbreaks of lumpy skin disease were confirmed in both Italy and France, prompting the UK's Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs to impose safeguarding measures. These started on 1 July, and included restricting the imports of unpasteurised and some thermised cheeses.

This has meant that any affected cheeses produced after 23 May 2025 cannot be imported into the UK. The restrictions mainly affect younger cheeses, such as Brie and Camembert, and customers will have noticed that unpasteurised versions of these cheeses have disappeared from the shops in the intervening period as stocks have sold through.

We continue to monitor the situation, and sometimes bring in alternative cheeses when we think they are of good enough taste and quality, but it has led to considerable gaps in our range. This is particularly noticeable online. We are also trying to source pasteurised versions of the raw milk cheeses we usually sell.

As things stand, imports remain suspended, as of the beginning of 2026.

Sheep and goat's cheese remains unaffected by these restrictions and is available normally.

Last updated February 2026.

[Sheilbh]

Sure but as I say it should be with its own regulations and risks. But I don't think you need an outright ban.

It's suspended at the minute due to an outbreak of disease in France and Italy - which is of all dairy products, live animals and some other meat products and mirrors restrictions imposed in the EU. I think that is right to protect other herds and production (that temporary ban has been good for UK dairies by the way as only certain types of brie are protected so there are UK bries which are very good) - I actually read something about this in Le Monde recently because it's been a crisis for French agriculture and it looks like it's passing and now contained.

Similarly you may well need to place temporary restrictions if there's a salmonella outbreak - I think that is better than chlorine washing poultry produce.

[crazy canuck]

Why not, if something is proven unsafe for human consumption, what is the downside of banning it?

Its not a great argument that only a few will be harmed.

[Syt]

[Valmy]

I am glad we have this guy reviewing and making recommendations on scientific research.

[Sheilbh]

Why not, if something is proven unsafe for human consumption, what is the downside of banning it?

Its not a great argument that only a few will be harmed.

Safety isn't everything - pleasure also matters.  Fundamentally, it tastes good and has hundreds of years of culture behind it (literally) - things that are not true of chemical food additives or chlorine. My view is basically the opposite of the FDA's - centuries old forms of production should be generally recognised as safe, chemical intervention or genetic modification need the precautionary principle.

Food also isn't just about safety for "consumers" but is also part of a living network of production and traditions which are also vitally important (which is why traditions and regions of production should als be protected). Most of the risks can be mitigated most of the time (e.g. pregnant women are advised not to eat soft cheeses or parboiled eggs) and if there's specific risks take additional measures - as with France and Italy recently.

In a way similar reason I wouldn't ban cigarettes, alcohol and would be broadly open to decriminalising drugs or for that matter sugar, salt, caffeine etc.

(I regret to announce this conversation has prompted me to make a massive order of cheese which I'll be picking up tomorrow )

[garbon]

Why not, if something is proven unsafe for human consumption, what is the downside of banning it?

Its not a great argument that only a few will be harmed.

For the aesthete apparently little else matters but one's own pleasure.

[Jacob]

And that's why alcohol is banned

[garbon]

And that's why alcohol is banned

I think evidence has shown banning that isn't really feasible. I don't think that's typically been true regarding raw milk.

But who knows what the future holds in a world where the UK is banning smoking and the younger generation is less interested in binge drinking.

[Sheilbh]

For the aesthete apparently little else matters but one's own pleasure.

Also the cultural and social traditions - these are ways of production (and consumption) in specific regions and communities and ways of life that are centuries old and worth more than eliminating a marginal risk.

This is genuinely the sort of thing I love about Europe (and wish we had more of in the UK - and one of the only areas I think we do have those tradtions of local production and craft is cheese)

[crazy canuck]

Safety isn't everything - pleasure also matters.

No