Crusader Kings III

[Jacob]

So the release day for All Under Heaven is Oct 28, apparently.

[Syt]

Seems early, but it should give them enough room to fix the worst problems by Christmas break

[Syt]

Not tried it yet, but the Steam reviews so far are ... "very positive"? Seems a bit unusual these days.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3315530/Crusader_Kings_III_All_Under_Heaven/

It's a bit of a shame - wouldn't mind to dive into it for a few dozen hours, but also: EU5 next week.


Though the memes are strong. OPB has as his launch video playing as Alfred of Wessex, traveling to China to take the Imperial Exam, then to Japan which he conquers and becomes the new ruler of Japan, trying to spread Catholicism in East Asia now. Fans of historic accuracy: beware.

[The Minsky Moment]

I haven't played the expansion,
But
CK is and always has been based on a certain idealized model of European feudalism, based on practices in parts of France, Spain, and England from about 1000 to 1250 or so.  The more you go outside that geography and timeline, the harder it is to "fit"

Pdox has handled it by furiously handwaving and adding some chrome to Islamic realms or principalities in eastern Europe, and by developing separate systems to handle city states, the Byzantine empire, the steppe peoples, etc.  And now Japan, China, SE Asia.

I guess it's nice to have all these people on the same map, but the reality is, pace Marco Polo, there wasn't really any direct interaction between Europe and East Asia during the period. For this time period, there is no reason you need Japan on the map if you are playing a Saxon duke, or to have Saxony if you are playing a Song minister.

I get lots of people who live in East Asian countries or are interested in Chinese or Japanese history from the period want to play these countries, but it would be much better to just design a complete separate standalone game for that.  I know - not going to happen.  But still.

[Syt]

Haven't dabbled much, but China/SE Asia and Japan seem to have their own bespoke government mechanics (with e.g. Treasury getting also being added to Byzantium).

In fact there's some complaints that if you don't buy the DLC, the map does get expanded as well, but China and Japan are turned into generic feudal realms and not using their new mechanics.

[Tamas]

OPB made an excellent review where we outlined his recent realisation that CK3 is not an RPG or a grand strategy. Rather, it's a sandbox. Hard to argue with his point of view. He uses the conclusion to say he has learned to love the game for what it is, for me it nicely explains how I get short bursts of activity with the game (the last one made me buy the season pass, woe is me), followed by long stretches of zero desire to play it.

[Syt]

OPB has described the recent expansions in his review for All Under Heaven (with some justification) as "theme park rides", with each adding specific mechanics that apply to some area of the map, but mostly those are isolated from one another. I mean, what recent DLC made real changes to how e.g. India plays? Tours and Tournaments, I guess (since it applied to all characters), but since then?

Meanwhile, the Victoria 3 team in recent DLCs add content for regions but includes mechanics that tie into the rest of the game and add something to almost all nations (like the nationalism overhaul that came as part of the Balkans update).

[The Minsky Moment]

Haven't dabbled much, but China/SE Asia and Japan seem to have their own bespoke government mechanics

Right, but that is part of the problem, which it seems OPB is picking at as well.  You basically have several separate games in one.

With Vic3 a worldwide map game can work: you can cover the globe using the same basic set of underlying mechanics and concepts because the period because you have a functioning world-system (in the Wallerstein sense) with global interactions. You may need some tweaks and special rules to handle the Qing, or the wacky situation in Japan, or the Ottomans, or the Americans who always stubbornly insist on doing things differently.  But the basics of population interaction, literacy, mass movements, industrial development, transport, trade can apply across the board. That doesn't work in CK; the core mechanic of feudal governance and personal relations just doesn't fit at all in many locations.

[Razgovory]

Wait, did Otto changed his name to Otto Pon Bismarck?  

[Syt]

Haven't dabbled much, but China/SE Asia and Japan seem to have their own bespoke government mechanics

Right, but that is part of the problem, which it seems OPB is picking at as well.  You basically have several separate games in one.

With Vic3 a worldwide map game can work: you can cover the globe using the same basic set of underlying mechanics and concepts because the period because you have a functioning world-system (in the Wallerstein sense) with global interactions. You may need some tweaks and special rules to handle the Qing, or the wacky situation in Japan, or the Ottomans, or the Americans who always stubbornly insist on doing things differently.  But the basics of population interaction, literacy, mass movements, industrial development, transport, trade can apply across the board. That doesn't work in CK; the core mechanic of feudal governance and personal relations just doesn't fit at all in many locations.

I agree. We have a fairly modular approach to religions and their tenets, cultures and their traditions (both of which Paradox seem not really interested in doing more with or expanding on), but unfortunately we don't have a similar flexible approach to organization and hierarchies of power.