What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Zoupa]

Sigh. Nevermind.

[Admiral Yi]

Republicans lie much, much more than Democrats.

[Josquius]

That's one of the annoying things.

A left winger or a chan nut posing as a left winger says something dumb and offensive online... Omfg the intolerant tolerant left is so bad I've got to side with the fascists.

Meanwhile people on the right say horrible things regularly? Not just randomers but their actual leaders?
This is fine.

I think we have a term for this  "Whataboutism".

You think wrong. Whataboutism doesn't just mean comparing two things.
Whataboutism would be defending A by saying "Yeah but B says x".
It's trying to shift the topic of conversation away from A when A is very much the sole focus.

This instead is given a equal choice of A or B from a supposed neutral starting ground going "OMG A is saying such horrible things. They force me to choose B" when this is completely counter to reality.

[Valmy]

"Well I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black."  - Joe Biden.

That is pretty racist.  Someone's race isn't dependent on who they vote for.

I think what made it especially weird is he was saying it in a zoom call with black Democratic leaders who were already all going to vote for him anyway. But yeah that was a very dumbass thing to say and being an old dude Joe probably is racist in a casual way. The only thing I can say in his defense was he probably thought he was saying it in confidence to other old Democrats. That wasn't intended for public consumption. But still man, you are running for President what the hell are you doing?

But hey you had to go back five years to find something even remotely equivalent to Trump's blood libel against Haitians. At least he wasn't implying all black people are subhuman and evil like Trump was saying about Haitians.

[Valmy]

That's one of the annoying things.

A left winger or a chan nut posing as a left winger says something dumb and offensive online... Omfg the intolerant tolerant left is so bad I've got to side with the fascists.

Meanwhile people on the right say horrible things regularly? Not just randomers but their actual leaders?
This is fine.

I think we have a term for this  "Whataboutism".

What? That is not a whataboutism 

But you know what? Nevermind. I don't want a semantic discussion. At least consider the first thing Jos said. Besides, I am not sure the second will continue to apply to right wing politicians once Trump is gone anyway, he seems to uniquely have this super power and is somehow able to transfer it over to his most fanatic supporters.

[Razgovory]

That's one of the annoying things.

A left winger or a chan nut posing as a left winger says something dumb and offensive online... Omfg the intolerant tolerant left is so bad I've got to side with the fascists.

Meanwhile people on the right say horrible things regularly? Not just randomers but their actual leaders?
This is fine.

I think we have a term for this  "Whataboutism".

You think wrong. Whataboutism doesn't just mean comparing two things.
Whataboutism would be defending A by saying "Yeah but B says x".
It's trying to shift the topic of conversation away from A when A is very much the sole focus.

This instead is given a equal choice of A or B from a supposed neutral starting ground going "OMG A is saying such horrible things. They force me to choose B" when this is completely counter to reality.

No, what you are doing is whataboutism.  When I point out leftists doing bad things you immediately shift to some right winger doing something worse.

[Josquius]

No, what you are doing is whataboutism.  When I point out leftists doing bad things you immediately shift to some right winger doing something worse.

 
We aren't talking about "leftists doing bad things". We are talking about voters decisions in elections.
Why is some random idiot claiming to be a left winger saying something dumb online such a huge problem whilst actual right wing leaders saying evil shit isn't?

[Razgovory]

No, what you are doing is whataboutism.  When I point out leftists doing bad things you immediately shift to some right winger doing something worse.

 
We aren't talking about "leftists doing bad things". We are talking about voters decisions in elections.
Why is some random idiot claiming to be a left winger saying something dumb online such a huge problem whilst actual right wing leaders saying evil shit isn't?

I didn't say that what the right does isn't bad, but the left does bad things too and holding large swaths of the electorate in contempt is one of them.  Would you describe yourself as " some random idiot claiming to be a left winger saying something dumb online"?

[grumbler]

I think that the whole "Left ...holding large swaths of the electorate in contempt" idea is one of those dumb right-wing social media fabrications that sells because it allows people to vote for shitty politicians and policies without feeling guilt.

Sophie's cartoon captures this perfectly. Raz's also, to a lesser extent.

[Josquius]

I think that the whole "Left ...holding large swaths of the electorate in contempt" idea is one of those dumb right-wing social media fabrications that sells because it allows people to vote for shitty politicians and policies without feeling guilt.

Yes. I think this is a large part of it. They don't want to admit it. They want to think they're good Christian people.... But they LIKE the idea of treating foreigners like shit, beating up people with different lifestyles, and so on.
Going "Ah but this woman with pink hair was so stupid and mean!" is a mask.

No, what you are doing is whataboutism.  When I point out leftists doing bad things you immediately shift to some right winger doing something worse.

 
We aren't talking about "leftists doing bad things". We are talking about voters decisions in elections.
Why is some random idiot claiming to be a left winger saying something dumb online such a huge problem whilst actual right wing leaders saying evil shit isn't?

I didn't say that what the right does isn't bad, but the left does bad things too and holding large swaths of the electorate in contempt is one of them. 

How do they hold the electorate in contempt?
Again we keep seeing this idea repeated with no evidence to show.

And whether what the populist right says is worse or not is all important here. We are talking about a 2 way decision (well, 3, just not voting too).

Would you describe yourself as " some random idiot claiming to be a left winger saying something dumb online"?

I'm an actual left winger.
Though yes, I'm very much an unconnected idiot saying stuff online.
If I say "Vote Democrats so we can ban cars completely by next Tuesday" then you need to consider "Wait, this is just some random idiot, he isn't even a Democrat. Hell, he's not even American. What he says has zero connection to what the actual Democrats are saying" whilst when Trump or one of his cronies says "Vote Republican so we can get women back in the kitchen where they belong" ....then that matters rather more.

[The Minsky Moment]

Honest question Raz.

Between the 2025 Democrats and 2025 Republicans, which party holds more American voters in contempt?

[Razgovory]

Honest question Raz.

Between the 2025 Democrats and 2025 Republicans, which party holds more American voters in contempt?

I think it a toss up really.

[Tamas]

Honest question Raz.

Between the 2025 Democrats and 2025 Republicans, which party holds more American voters in contempt?

I think it a toss up really.

Not even close.

Democrats hold Republican voters in contempt. Republicans hold Democrat and Republican voters in contempt.

[Sheilbh]

The question I have is to what degree the Democratic brand is toxic because of any real substance, and to what degree the Democratic brand is toxic because of a sustained, thorough, and supremely successful propaganda effort to make it so by its political opponents.

It may be neither - I'm going to post in the UK thread on some pretty stunning polls here (with many caveats etc etc) - but I think in most of the democratic West the parties of the broadly liberal-left and established traditional parties seem to be struggling everywhere and facing challenges from more radical and disruptive politics on both left and right. There are aspects that I think are specific to the US, but I think it's more the form that disruption takes than the nature of it.

I would also just say we shouldn't have a perjorative tone on "propaganda". I think Ukraine have been fantastic at propaganda - and I think that successful propaganda effort has had a significant effect on the course of the war. I think in a democratic society, in many ways, the fundamental of politics is propaganda - everything else is secondary.

I think it's probably worth looking at the countries where that hasn't happened and considering the differences.

FWIW with the 12 day war and Epstein (but also, earlier, H-1B visas) I think we are starting to see MAGA radicalising beyond and away from Trump (and his control). There was a Janan Ganesh piece in the FT and as ever I'm not entirely in agreement but I think he was right that the course is now probably that Trump will end up being viewed as a failure by the MAGA right. A disappointment, a sellout, a RINO - in just the same way as every post-war Republican President (with the possible exception of Reagan) ends up being seen as a bit of a betrayal of the "conservative movement". I think he's right. I think they're going to radicalise even more - that will probably make them less electable, but more dangerous (ratcheting again) and I suspect Trump will be viewed as a relative pragmatist and possibly rehabilitated like W.

[garbon]

Rehabilitated by whom?