What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Richard Hakluyt]

I was just watching that wanker Bessent talking about the tariff pause with China. He's not a great speaker is he? Then I noticed that there was something on his US flag lapel pin. a little bit of research and it turns out it is a golden bust of the great helmsman himself, Trump.

[viper37]

I think that applies very well to the Palestinian visa holders who got deported for speech, not at all for this one, unless there's more to this story I'm not aware of.

There's the Newark mayor who was detained by ICE and the Wisconsin judge who was detained and now suspended from her job. There seems to be steady stream of stories of citizens being wrongfully detained, combined with Trumps stated desire to deport million+ people, the stated desire to avoid any kind of due process, and Stephen Miller's on the record statements about suspending Habeas Corpus.

Seems to me it's trending in the wrong direction.

I haven't read up on on Newark mayor.  The Wisconsin judge is guilty as sin.

If you're the one determining who's guilty or not in your country, we have a problem.  It's no longer a democracy.

[viper37]

But it really reduces the effect in my eyes when you knowingly break the law as a political gesture then whine about how unfair it is you're being arrested.

Kinda like the American Revolution?

[crazy canuck]

I was just watching that wanker Bessent talking about the tariff pause with China. He's not a great speaker is he? Then I noticed that there was something on his US flag lapel pin. a little bit of research and it turns out it is a golden bust of the great helmsman himself, Trump.

Yes, the only criteria for holding an important office in the United States now is devotion to the great leader. And yet there are people like Yi who insist on assuming that things are operating as normal. Going so far as to supporting the arrest of a judge by asserting that she knew that she was breaking the law.

For a totalitarian regime to be created, there is no need to convince even a majority of the population.  You just need good people to do nothing, or worse, justify the decisions of the totalitarian regime.

[Valmy]

I was just watching that wanker Bessent talking about the tariff pause with China. He's not a great speaker is he? Then I noticed that there was something on his US flag lapel pin. a little bit of research and it turns out it is a golden bust of the great helmsman himself, Trump.

Pause? Pause until when? For what purpose?

[crazy canuck]

I was just watching that wanker Bessent talking about the tariff pause with China. He's not a great speaker is he? Then I noticed that there was something on his US flag lapel pin. a little bit of research and it turns out it is a golden bust of the great helmsman himself, Trump.

Pause? Pause until when? For what purpose?

Pause because they need to find a way to back down fast without admitting they were wrong

[Valmy]

You sure? Seems like they are pretty excited to lock up people who don't cooperate.

Pretty sure.  I personally have not seen them lock up anyone who doesn't cooperate and by definition I haven't seen them excited about something they haven't done.

If you know of an example of them getting excited about locking up people who don't cooperate, please direct me to it.

I am not going to do shit. Because the abuses here are so obvious and so systematic that eventually events will overwhelm your ability to make excuses for it. I will just wait around for that to happen.

[frunk]

I was just watching that wanker Bessent talking about the tariff pause with China. He's not a great speaker is he? Then I noticed that there was something on his US flag lapel pin. a little bit of research and it turns out it is a golden bust of the great helmsman himself, Trump.

Pause? Pause until when? For what purpose?

Pause because market manipulation works best if there are hills and valleys, even if the overall trend is down.

[Admiral Yi]

I am not going to do shit. Because the abuses here are so obvious and so systematic that eventually events will overwhelm your ability to make excuses for it. I will just wait around for that to happen.

I had a conversation with a Trump supporter not that long ago that went kind of the same way.  I said I didn't like Trump because he lied all the time.  He responded with the foreseeable "all politicians lie."  I asked him to name one time Biden had lied.  He sputtered and said "too many to count."

I'm not making excuses because I don't think there's anything to make excuses for.  I think the phenomenon you're describing doesn't exist.  I think you made it up.

[crazy canuck]

I am not going to do shit. Because the abuses here are so obvious and so systematic that eventually events will overwhelm your ability to make excuses for it. I will just wait around for that to happen.

I had a conversation with a Trump supporter not that long ago that went kind of the same way.  I said I didn't like Trump because he lied all the time.  He responded with the foreseeable "all politicians lie."  I asked him to name one time Biden had lied.  He sputtered and said "too many to count."

I'm not making excuses because I don't think there's anything to make excuses for.  I think the phenomenon you're describing doesn't exist.  I think you made it up.

Your go to line is that you haven't seen it but that's we have learned over the years that you live a very sheltered life in which you don't actually encounter a lot and certainly don't read newspapers or watch news broadcast. If you did you would've seen a number of instances that found me is talking about.

In this thread, Viper told you about an unlawful arrest and you said you hadn't read up on it.

I'll say it again if the United States democracy fails, it will be because of people like you.

[Admiral Yi]

The courtroom deputy works for the judge. If the intent was to help Flores-Ruiz evade, why tip off the agents in this way?  And then shortly afterwards send him out in the corridor where two agents were then known to be present?

I don't know if it naturally follows from the fact that the bailiff works for the judge that he was an active participant in her obstruction of justice.  None of the accounts that I've read or heard have discussed any communications between the judge and the bailiff apart from informing the judge that "ICE are here."  I don't *know* that the judge knew there were two agents in the corridor.

I don't know why Judge Waumbaugh sent Ruiz through the jury room instead of her chambers.  I can speculate if you'd like.

Several witnesses described what happened inside Courtroom 615 while these other conversations occurred. Judge Dugan "forcefully motioned" for Flores-Ruiz's attorney to approach, and the attorney then appeared to engage in what the courtroom deputy thought was an off-the-record conversation about the next court date

All this is perfectly consistent with the most logical, Occam's razor reading of the situation - that the judge was frustrated that a large ICE enforcement team was causing disruption and she wanted to get rid the cause of the situation rather than proceed leisurely through the usual calendar.

The root problem with the prosecution remains - if you assume the intent of the judge was to assist in the evasion of Flores-Ruiz, her actions make no sense.  If you assume she was frustrated and just wanted to bring an obnoxious and disruptive situation to a close, her actions do make sense.  Since the government would have to prove the former beyond a reasonable doubt, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that this is for show and not a good faith prosecution.

If it's closure she wanted, the Occamish choice would have been to skip the emergency conference with the defense attorney and direct the defendant out the main entrance to the court where every single defendant in the history of this court had entered and exited the court.  A desire for closure might have also been demonstrated by an attempt to find out if the ICE agents had returned from their wild goose chase to the chief judge's office.

[The Minsky Moment]

Yi:

If it's closure she wanted, the Occamish choice would have been to skip the emergency conference with the defense attorney and direct the defendant out the main entrance to the court where every single defendant in the history of this court had entered and exited the court.

I addressed that earlier in the thread.  The main entrance to a busy courtroom has people constantly going in and out on courtroom business.  So there is very good reason why the judge would not want an ICE takedown occurring in the middle of that space.

A desire for closure might have also been demonstrated by an attempt to find out if the ICE agents had returned from their wild goose chase to the chief judge's office.

The only way that Judge Dugan would not know the agents were in the corridor is if the courtroom deputy did not inform her.  That would be irregular to say the least.  Since the deputy appears to be the most important witness in the criminal complaint, it would raise very interesting avenues for cross-examination.

Your comment also raises a separate concern: sending the ICE team to the Chief Judge was far from a wild goose chase.  It is irregular for a 6-man federal enforcement team to camp outside an active state courtroom to conduct an arrest/perp walk.  It is particularly irregular to do so without providing any advance warning to courthouse staff and the chief judge.  The legality of the action is not clear to me: the corridor in front of the courtoom may be a "public space" but it is a space in a building controlled by a separate branch of government of a separate sovereign.  I don't think federal officials can conduct law enforcement actions in a way that disrupts ongoing operations of the state judiciary.  Having failed to contact the Chief Judge's office before showing up with a team; it is not surprising at all that they would be directed to his office.

The account of the discussion with the Chief Judge is interesting, because although the affidavit tries to convey the impression that the Chief Judge gave the enforcement action his blessing, a close reading indicates that did not happen.  The Chief Judge is quoted as saying that the corridor was a "public area" but did NOT say that enforcement actions could occur in any public area.

[grumbler]

The Newark incident is, luckily for us, much more straightforward: Mayor Baraka entered the grounds of the ICE facility there in company with three US Representatives from New Jersey. The Reps were there on a fact-finding mission in accordance with their Congressional oversight responsibilities. They spent ten minutes trying to persuade the ICE officials to let Baraka accompany them, and were refused.  Baraka then left the facility and returned to the public side of the fence, joining with some protesters who'd been there all along. Several minutes later, the ICE guards re-opened the fence, exited into the public area, and arrested Baraka.

The Justice Department spokesperson described the above as two congressmen (not even getting the number right) and Baraka "storming the facility" and "breaking in to the area of the guard shack" which was right inside the gate. When they had to file charges, though, the best the FBI could do was to accuse Baraka of violating a state law against "disorderly trespass" which is a "petty disorderly persons offence."

The only violence in the incident seems to be that committed by ICE agents attempting to push aside lawful protesters in their effort to get at Baraka.  Alina Habba (US Attorney for New Jersey and the most famously incompetent lawyer on the planet) says that she is going to charge the congresscritters with assault, but we know that she is, as always, lying.  There's simply no evidence, even from the testimony of the ICE agents themselves.

Legal Eagle has more details on this:

[Valmy]

The Newark incident is, luckily for us, much more straightforward: Mayor Baraka entered the grounds of the ICE facility there in company with three US Representatives from New Jersey. The Reps were there on a fact-finding mission in accordance with their Congressional oversight responsibilities. They spent ten minutes trying to persuade the ICE officials to let Baraka accompany them, and were refused.  Baraka then left the facility and returned to the public side of the fence, joining with some protesters who'd been there all along. Several minutes later, the ICE guards re-opened the fence, exited into the public area, and arrested Baraka.

The Justice Department spokesperson described the above as two congressmen (not even getting the number right) and Baraka "storming the facility" and "breaking in to the area of the guard shack" which was right inside the gate. When they had to file charges, though, the best the FBI could do was to accuse Baraka of violating a state law against "disorderly trespass" which is a "petty disorderly persons offence."

The only violence in the incident seems to be that committed by ICE agents attempting to push aside lawful protesters in their effort to get at Baraka.  Alina Habba (US Attorney for New Jersey and the most famously incompetent lawyer on the planet) says that she is going to charge the congresscritters with assault, but we know that she is, as always, lying.  There's simply no evidence, even from the testimony of the ICE agents themselves.

But tell me more about how they weren't looking for any excuse to abuse their power and arrest people.

[grumbler]

The only way that Judge Dugan would not know the agents were in the corridor is if the courtroom deputy did not inform her.  That would be irregular to say the least.  Since the deputy appears to be the most important witness in the criminal complaint, it would raise very interesting avenues for cross-examination.

That would only be true if she had not herself gone into the corridor and directed ALL of the agents to go to the Chief Judge's office. She missed one because he hadn't been photographed by the PD.  Why send all of them and not just the team leader?  Unless she wanted them gone while she sent Ruiz away.

Your comment also raises a separate concern: sending the ICE team to the Chief Judge was far from a wild goose chase.  It is irregular for a 6-man federal enforcement team to camp outside an active state courtroom to conduct an arrest/perp walk.  It is particularly irregular to do so without providing any advance warning to courthouse staff and the chief judge.

They did tell the courthouse staff that they were conducting the arrest.

I don't think that I can accept your designation of all of these events as "irregular" when ICE had conducted another arrest just like this one earlier this year in the exact same courthouse.

It certainly was irregular for the judge to send off every agent she knew of, cancel the hearing without notice, and hustle the defendant out the back door.