Archaeologists do it in holes: Tales from the stratigraphy

[Razgovory]

Do you want a bunch of racist oppressors in Britain?

[Gups]

People should probably look at what is actually happening in South Africa before getting upset at all the "injustices inflicted on white people." The forced sale of land (eminent domain) only applies to land that is not being used. Such exercises of eminent domain can and do occur in the US, and the USSC says that that is perfectly okay.

That's true, but in the States eminent domain  is subject to the payment of fair compensation. The South African Parliament in 2017 under Zuma amended RSA's constitution to allow for expropriation of land without compensation. It's an important difference.

 

[Valmy]

People should probably look at what is actually happening in South Africa before getting upset at all the "injustices inflicted on white people." The forced sale of land (eminent domain) only applies to land that is not being used. Such exercises of eminent domain can and do occur in the US, and the USSC says that that is perfectly okay.

That's true, but in the States eminent domain  is subject to the payment of fair compensation. The South African Parliament in 2017 under Zuma amended RSA's constitution to allow for expropriation of land without compensation. It's an important difference.

It is.

Though Zuma has been out of the ANC and out of office for awhile now, correct?

I guess I thought the unused land thing was rather recent. Did this already happen?

[Valmy]

Do you want a bunch of racist oppressors in Britain?

I mean they can have Elon Musk.

Are any countries doing anything to keep Boers out? It seems like they aren't having any particular or unusual trouble emigrating if they want to. Anything to support your notion they are seen as white supremacists that nobody wants around? 

[Oexmelin]

And that's the main issue with trying to right historic wrongs. At some point, property rights enshrined structural inequities, and could be used to leverage wealth and status. The French and Russian revolutions confiscated lands precisely because they wanted to remake the power structures of the country. American revolutionaries seized loyalist land. The American Civil War balked at the idea of land confiscation because, ultimately, white Americans did not really want to remake the racial hierarchies. Many South American independence movements didn't either, ensuring decades of unrest and political struggles based on land redistribution projects. France extorted reparations from Haiti for loss of "property", meaning the slaves themselves.

Trying to right profoundly structural inequity is hard - because people who enjoy the benefits of that structural inequality often had no part in instigating it. Yet, compensations for former elites have also been a way to cripple fledgling states.

[Razgovory]

Do you want a bunch of racist oppressors in Britain?

I mean they can have Elon Musk.

Are any countries doing anything to keep Boers out? It seems like they aren't having any particular or unusual trouble emigrating if they want to. Anything to support your notion they are seen as white supremacists that nobody wants around? 

Because they are generally seen as the bad guys.  I don't speak with rightists as much, so I don't have as strong understanding of what they want, but among the left, importing a million white supremacists would not be popular.  Elon Musk is an interesting example.  I don't think he has said anything about Apartheid, but the stigma of being a White South African is certainly there.  It seems that in some people's minds, White South African and racist are synonymous. 

[Valmy]

Do you want a bunch of racist oppressors in Britain?

I mean they can have Elon Musk.

Are any countries doing anything to keep Boers out? It seems like they aren't having any particular or unusual trouble emigrating if they want to. Anything to support your notion they are seen as white supremacists that nobody wants around? 

Because they are generally seen as the bad guys.  I don't speak with rightists as much, so I don't have as strong understanding of what they want, but among the left, importing a million white supremacists would not be popular.  Elon Musk is an interesting example.  I don't think he has said anything about Apartheid, but the stigma of being a White South African is certainly there.  It seems that in some people's minds, White South African and racist are synonymous.

What? Elon Musk has advanced anti-South African policies and supported far right parties abroad and talked about white genocide. He has basically turned Twitter into a propaganda platform for racists and far right people. So if he is doing a wonderful job linking those two things in the public mind. Before he did any of those things, I don't recall anybody bringing up him being South African made him a racist. And if there was nobody was taking them seriously.

Any stigma against him is entirely self-inflicted. He isn't some fucking victim Raz.

I guess I just cannot argue with you insisting that the whole world believes in this settler-colonial theory and everybody hates Boers. You just insist on it and demand I agree.

Well I don't agree, that is a shitty method of convincing.

I am on the left and I guess if I was shown images of Boers being murdered and forced from their homes at gun point by South African government troops I would be sympathetic to us doing something to help them. I cannot speak for everybody.

You think Jos would be cheering on the slaughter and calling for blood. Well I don't think so. I think he would see that and feel empathy for them and want to help, regardless of how he felt about the past actions of the Boers.

[Josquius]

Do you want a bunch of racist oppressors in Britain?

Amazing racism on display here.

[Razgovory]

Do you want a bunch of racist oppressors in Britain?

I mean they can have Elon Musk.

Are any countries doing anything to keep Boers out? It seems like they aren't having any particular or unusual trouble emigrating if they want to. Anything to support your notion they are seen as white supremacists that nobody wants around? 

Because they are generally seen as the bad guys.  I don't speak with rightists as much, so I don't have as strong understanding of what they want, but among the left, importing a million white supremacists would not be popular.  Elon Musk is an interesting example.  I don't think he has said anything about Apartheid, but the stigma of being a White South African is certainly there.  It seems that in some people's minds, White South African and racist are synonymous.

What? Elon Musk has advanced anti-South African policies and supported far right parties abroad and talked about white genocide. He has basically turned Twitter into a propaganda platform for racists and far right people. So if he is doing a wonderful job linking those two things in the public mind. Before he did any of those things, I don't recall anybody bringing up him being South African made him a racist. And if there was nobody was taking them seriously.

Any stigma against him is entirely self-inflicted. He isn't some fucking victim Raz.

I guess I just cannot argue with you insisting that the whole world believes in this settler-colonial theory and everybody hates Boers. You just insist on it and demand I agree.

Well I don't agree, that is a shitty method of convincing.

I am on the left and I guess if I was shown images of Boers being murdered and forced from their homes at gun point by South African government troops I would be sympathetic to us doing something to help them. I cannot speak for everybody.

You think Jos would be cheering on the slaughter and calling for blood. Well I don't think so. I think he would see that and feel empathy for them and want to help, regardless of how he felt about the past actions of the Boers.

I'm not saying that he is victim, and I don't think Josq would be calling for blood.  What I said was the world would just shrug it off.  There are more deserving people to care about.

[Valmy]

The French and Russian revolutions confiscated lands precisely because they wanted to remake the power structures of the country.

Well the émigrés got their billion in the end.

[Valmy]

I'm not saying that he is victim, and I don't think Josq would be calling for blood.  What I said was the world would just shrug it off.  There are more deserving people to care about.

I guess if there were multiple massacres butchering hundreds of thousands of people occurring simultaneously, maybe that one would be a lower priority.

But if the Boers were being slaughtered we would be getting videos and personal testimonies out the ass. That would impact public opinion. The Boers are online and there are tons of emigre enclaves throughout the major English Speaking countries. If, on the other hand, some minority on the Island of New Guinea was being slaughtered by the Indonesian government, or whatever, a lot of us wouldn't even hear about it until it had already happened.

[Josquius]

[
I'm not saying that he is victim, and I don't think Josq would be calling for blood.  What I said was the world would just shrug it off.  There are more deserving people to care about.

You really live in another dimension.
It's not the fact its in Africa that leads to Sudan being ignored. An atrocity against white English speaking people (yes, I know) would attract a humongous amount of attention in the west.

This is such a basic fact people have been calling it out for decades.
e.g.  Thou shalt always kill

Thou shalt give equal worth to tragedies that occur in non-English
speaking countries as to those that occur in English speaking countries.

[Razgovory]

I thought the Boers spoke dutch or something.  Anyway, I think if there is a conflict between white colonialists and the down trodden, indigenous people of Africa most people would pick the more righteous natives.  "This isn't happening in a vacuum" and such.

[crazy canuck]

And that's the main issue with trying to right historic wrongs. At some point, property rights enshrined structural inequities, and could be used to leverage wealth and status. The French and Russian revolutions confiscated lands precisely because they wanted to remake the power structures of the country. American revolutionaries seized loyalist land. The American Civil War balked at the idea of land confiscation because, ultimately, white Americans did not really want to remake the racial hierarchies. Many South American independence movements didn't either, ensuring decades of unrest and political struggles based on land redistribution projects. France extorted reparations from Haiti for loss of "property", meaning the slaves themselves.

Trying to right profoundly structural inequity is hard - because people who enjoy the benefits of that structural inequality often had no part in instigating it. Yet, compensations for former elites have also been a way to cripple fledgling states.

Yes, it is a difficult balance.

[Valmy]

I thought the Boers spoke dutch or something.  Anyway, I think if there is a conflict between white colonialists and the down trodden, indigenous people of Africa most people would pick the more righteous natives.  "This isn't happening in a vacuum" and such.

Afrikaans. But they generally speak English as a second language.

Ok what is up with that quote? Have their regularly been mass killings and ethnic cleansing happening that has been justified with "this isn't happening in a vacuum?"

Also I am not sure people are as "rah rah" about every move the ANC government, because of their inherent righteousness, makes as you seem to think.