Archaeologists do it in holes: Tales from the stratigraphy

[grumbler]

People should probably look at what is actually happening in South Africa before getting upset at all the "injustices inflicted on white people." The forced sale of land (eminent domain) only applies to land that is not being used. Such exercises of eminent domain can and do occur in the US, and the USSC says that that is perfectly okay.

There is a fair amount of "Afrikaner Independence" talk in SA, but that is, so far, just talk. As is the "Kill the Boer" talk from the "Economic Freedom Fighters" party.

[Valmy]

I don't even know when people in the West became aware of the ethnic cleansing of the Crimean Tartars, and quite frankly many of the people who get involved in mass protests would probably be okay with it.  It was done by the right people after all.  If more decedents of settlers were forced out of Africa in the name of fighting white supremacy, I think most of the world would be cool with it.  The only people who would raise a ruckus would be the far-right.  Like the expulsion of the Italians from Libya.  Or the land seizures in Zimbabwe. They were the wrong people to be living in Africa.

I disagree. We are talking about a pretty sizeable population of people in South Africa. Something like 6% of the entire population. The murder of millions of people is not going to be greeted with "oh well they are whites so they deserve it" the best examples you can come up are much tinier minorities and the Zimbabwe thing basically made that country an international pariah.

Also I guess I missed all the big protests against other atrocities you seem to think keep happening.

Boers are like 1.4 million people, if you say anything about them being disposed you'd have guys like Josq saying that is just typical Nazi arguments.  Hopefully nothing happens that disabuses you of your notions.  And if something does happen, hopefully you have the moral courage to not justify it or try to wash your hands of the whole situation.

I guess I missed my long history of justifying and washing my hands of the murder or ethnic cleansing of 1.4 million people.

[Razgovory]

People should probably look at what is actually happening in South Africa before getting upset at all the "injustices inflicted on white people." The forced sale of land (eminent domain) only applies to land that is not being used. Such exercises of eminent domain can and do occur in the US, and the USSC says that that is perfectly okay.

There is a fair amount of "Afrikaner Independence" talk in SA, but that is, so far, just talk. As is the "Kill the Boer" talk from the "Economic Freedom Fighters" party.

I never said it was happening, I said that if did happen the world would shrug.  As Josq said, they are quite wealthy, they would land on their feet, unlike the real refugees.  Defending the rights of white settlers over indigenous black Africans would be a pretty toxic stance to take.

[Valmy]

People should probably look at what is actually happening in South Africa before getting upset at all the "injustices inflicted on white people." The forced sale of land (eminent domain) only applies to land that is not being used. Such exercises of eminent domain can and do occur in the US, and the USSC says that that is perfectly okay.

There is a fair amount of "Afrikaner Independence" talk in SA, but that is, so far, just talk. As is the "Kill the Boer" talk from the "Economic Freedom Fighters" party.

I never said it was happening, I said that if did happen the world would shrug.  As Josq said, they are quite wealthy, they would land on their feet, unlike the real refugees.  Defending the rights of white settlers over indigenous black Africans would be a pretty toxic stance to take.

The world would not shrug. That's stupid. South Africa would face very serious consequences as, indeed Zimbabwe did.

And who are these world "real" refugees the world is so very concerned with and treats so excellently?

[Valmy]

Really aren't proving me wrong Josq...

I don't see how anything he says shows he would shrug is there was a massacre/mass expulsion of Boers.

He just said they would probably do better than a lot of refugees. Obviously they would do less well if they had all their stuff seized and/or were all killed.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, like China faced serious consequences with the Uyghurs.  Zimbabwe faced consequences from their actions because of their own disasters economic decisions, not because they were imposed from the outside.  I never said that the real refugees get treated excellently, I was noting the dichotomy that Josq introduced.  The wealthy, educated South Africans and the more worthy, normal oppressed refugees.

[Valmy]

Yeah, like China faced serious consequences with the Uyghurs.  Zimbabwe faced consequences from their actions because of their own disasters economic decisions, not because they were imposed from the outside.  I never said that the real refugees get treated excellently, I was noting the dichotomy that Josq introduced.  The wealthy, educated South Africans and the more worthy, normal oppressed refugees.

Zimbabwe was under sanctions.

Bringing up the Uighurs seems to completely destroy and undermine your point. Kind of a weird move on your part.

And if the "worthy, normal, oppressed" refugees also get treated badly and the world shrugs then what dichotomy are you introducing? You seem to be admitting you are just wrong.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, like China faced serious consequences with the Uyghurs.  Zimbabwe faced consequences from their actions because of their own disasters economic decisions, not because they were imposed from the outside.  I never said that the real refugees get treated excellently, I was noting the dichotomy that Josq introduced.  The wealthy, educated South Africans and the more worthy, normal oppressed refugees.

Zimbabwe was under sanctions.

Bringing up the Uighurs seems to completely destroy and undermine your point. Kind of a weird move on your part.

And if the "worthy, normal, oppressed" refugees also get treated badly and the world shrugs then what dichotomy are you introducing? You seem to be admitting you are just wrong.

I don't see how that destroys my point.  Some people are more worthy than others.  Obviously The Uyghurs are not as worthy. Or perhaps more precisely their persecutors are not as disfavored. You don't see big marches for them in Dublin and Paris.

Again you seem to want to put words in my mouth.  I didn't say they were being treated badly either.  My point was that Josq notes that the White south Africans would be okay if they were displaced unlike other poorer refugees.  It would do less harm if they became refugees over, say, some Syrians.  You could easily shrugged off the displacement of South Africans because they would be okay, and focus on the real problems such a poorer, more worthy, refugees.

It is Identity politics, it is absolutely toxic and it has completely warped our world.

[viper37]

I'm more iffy on the history of Germanic peoples in Gaul.

Franks... Francia... France... ?

I know the franks but less familiar with the timeline of the transition. There were other tribes too, like the Visigoths for a while and the Alans and suebi. Being on the border the migration patterns were more complicated and I just don't know enough about it

The Visigothic kingdoms in France pretty much cease to exists after Charles Martel.

Reddit sub r/askhistorians is very good to search for detailed questions and they give sources with each answers.

[Josquius]

People should probably look at what is actually happening in South Africa before getting upset at all the "injustices inflicted on white people." The forced sale of land (eminent domain) only applies to land that is not being used. Such exercises of eminent domain can and do occur in the US, and the USSC says that that is perfectly okay.

There is a fair amount of "Afrikaner Independence" talk in SA, but that is, so far, just talk. As is the "Kill the Boer" talk from the "Economic Freedom Fighters" party.

I never said it was happening, I said that if did happen the world would shrug.  As Josq said, they are quite wealthy, they would land on their feet, unlike the real refugees.  Defending the rights of white settlers over indigenous black Africans would be a pretty toxic stance to take.

You know, key to why in this theoretical situation of yours white South Africans would do better than other groups is that your lot wouldn't have the automatic backlash against them they do against refugees in general (at first anyway, as I say the inevitable twisting and mask off moment when its revealed a lot of the people seeking asylum are black....).

And yes. You twisted what I said to suit your ridiculous strawman but nonetheless your term "real refugees" is valid given there are plenty of real refugees in the world and the current situation of South Africans generally doesn't qualify no matter what Trump may say.

[Razgovory]

Why wouldn't they have an automatic backlash against them?

[viper37]

Why are we discussing a scenario that no one is proposing in South Africa and only exists in the mind of the likes of Elon Musk?

[Josquius]

Why wouldn't they have an automatic backlash against them?

I mean trump is offering them asylum already before they're even in any trouble.

And you can see from Europe that the right are a lot quieter about Ukrainians than they usually are about refugees. They might pretend their hangups are about something else but it's clearly race based.

[Razgovory]

Why wouldn't they have an automatic backlash against them?

I mean trump is offering them asylum already before they're even in any trouble.

And you can see from Europe that the right are a lot quieter about Ukrainians than they usually are about refugees. They might pretend their hangups are about something else but it's clearly race based.

I don't know, the Pied Noirs were not universally loved in France.  People escaping S. Africa would probably be seen a white supremacists, and nobody wants a bunch of racist oppressors around.  Assuming they came to Europe or North America.  They probably wouldn't be welcomed in other African countries either.

[Josquius]

Why wouldn't they have an automatic backlash against them?

I mean trump is offering them asylum already before they're even in any trouble.

And you can see from Europe that the right are a lot quieter about Ukrainians than they usually are about refugees. They might pretend their hangups are about something else but it's clearly race based.

I don't know, the Pied Noirs were not universally loved in France.  People escaping S. Africa would probably be seen a white supremacists, and nobody wants a bunch of racist oppressors around.  Assuming they came to Europe or North America.  They probably wouldn't be welcomed in other African countries either.