Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

Fascism seems to be intrinsic to identify.  If you ban the teacher of evolution in the US, it is an example of Christian nationalist fascism.  In Syria, it's not even remotely fascism.

We expect Syrians to be authoritarian fascists. It is more upsetting when the US is.

[Razgovory]

Fascism seems to be intrinsic to identify.  If you ban the teacher of evolution in the US, it is an example of Christian nationalist fascism.  In Syria, it's not even remotely fascism.

We expect Syrians to be authoritarian fascists. It is more upsetting when the US is.

I don't think that it is it at all.  We hold different people to different standards.  It's similar to the idea that "Power + Prejudice is Racism."  It's how some people justify supporting terrible ideas and people.

[Valmy]

I don't think that it is it at all.  We hold different people to different standards.  It's similar to the idea that "Power + Prejudice is Racism."  It's how some people justify supporting terrible ideas and people.

We do? I don't. But I cannot speak for others.

I think it is just wishful thinking that somehow the new government in Syria won't be so bad. We see the same shit with Trump over here all the damn time. Sheilbh will post another article about how Trump's policies are actually going to be great. 5-D chess is being played. America is going to be a big winner through finance and tech and crypto! Syria's insane right wing extremist fascist leaders radicalized through years of war will actually be moderate, just you wait and see!

You would have to be an absolute idiot to believe any of that stuff, but that's where we seem to be as a species right now.

[Razgovory]

Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but I see it all the time.  I've always seen it among the left, but I've always ignored it or bit my tongue.  It's a matter of power dynamics, or we shouldn't focus on that but focus on the people who are the real threat, or these people don't have agency, or it's punching down, or it's not my culture I can't criticize.  I'm tired of the double standards and the bullshit.  What is to be gained with this charade?  To believe that creationism is terrible among Christians but shrug when it's among non-Christians?  To despise nationalism amongst ourselves but cheer it among others (particularly those that hate us), to say hate based on race is a terrible idea for people with one skin color but acceptable or understandable by people of another skin color?  This is asinine.  The right effectively points that out, and most common rebuttal by the left is "You're a fascist" or "You're a racist".  I don't see this sort of stance helps anyone.

[Valmy]

Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but I see it all the time.  I've always seen it among the left, but I've always ignored it or bit my tongue.  It's a matter of power dynamics, or we shouldn't focus on that but focus on the people who are the real threat, or these people don't have agency, or it's punching down, or it's not my culture I can't criticize.  I'm tired of the double standards and the bullshit.  What is to be gained with this charade?  To believe that creationism is terrible among Christians but shrug when it's among non-Christians?  To despise nationalism amongst ourselves but cheer it among others (particularly those that hate us), to say hate based on race is a terrible idea for people with one skin color but acceptable or understandable by people of another skin color?  This is asinine.  The right effectively points that out, and most common rebuttal by the left is "You're a fascist" or "You're a racist".  I don't see this sort of stance helps anyone.

No I think all those stances are horrible. This argument doesn't make any sense. How is it punching down to point out horrible things being done by a government? They are fucking government. I am just some guy. They have thousands of dudes with guns and modern weaponry. I am armed with only a keyboard. I have never once been called a fascist or a racist by anybody on the left for trashing the Iranian or Saudi governments.

These horrible policies by the these Islamic governments hurt Muslims. When Iraq declares the age of consent to be 9 years old for girls that hurts Muslim girls (gosh I wonder why they picked that fucking age? Because of a careful consideration of what is good for their children? No it is because that's when Mohammed said you should fuck girls). If some leftist wants to say that, in fact, it is racist and fascist to oppose marrying and having sex with 9 year old girls I guess that is a perspective.

But not one I have ever seen. And if I do see it, I will attack it. Because, you know, I don't think we need to do anything to Iraq because they have terrible laws but I think we should at least go "son of a bitch, that is some dark shit."

[crazy canuck]

Fascism seems to be intrinsic to identify.  If you ban the teacher of evolution in the US, it is an example of Christian nationalist fascism.  In Syria, it's not even remotely fascism.

We expect Syrians to be authoritarian fascists. It is more upsetting when the US is.

I don't think that it is it at all.  We hold different people to different standards.  It's similar to the idea that "Power + Prejudice is Racism."  It's how some people justify supporting terrible ideas and people.

 

What different standard do you say the Assad regime was held to?

[Razgovory]

It's not just governments it is movements. It is ideologies. It is people It's in this very thread with the Palestinians.  I couldn't get Josq to admit that Palestinians are right-wing.  The beliefs that common among are generally far-right but to say that would be "punching down".  CC justifies his positions by claiming that the Palestinians lack agency and denying that Hamas is a manifestation of the popular will in Gaza.  They are just a gang, as if lord Humongous rode out of the waste land and established schools and hospitals in the Levant.  Or perhaps the Mossad created it, tricking a million people to become obedient slaves of an ideology they don't believe in.  Outside Languish, there are plenty of people who will warn us of Christian Nationalism but will whole-heartedly support, either directly or indirectly, extreme theocracy in Palestine.

This is of course not relegated to Israel-Palestine, but is where it does some of the most damage.  Another manifestation of this sort of thinking is the idea that black people can't be racist or that ethno-nationalism is okay among non-European people.

[Razgovory]

Fascism seems to be intrinsic to identify.  If you ban the teacher of evolution in the US, it is an example of Christian nationalist fascism.  In Syria, it's not even remotely fascism.

We expect Syrians to be authoritarian fascists. It is more upsetting when the US is.

I don't think that it is it at all.  We hold different people to different standards.  It's similar to the idea that "Power + Prejudice is Racism."  It's how some people justify supporting terrible ideas and people.

 

What different standard do you say the Assad regime was held to?

You had plenty of people defending Assad, denying his crimes, while demanding the destruction of the country next door.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

You had plenty of people defending Assad, denying his crimes, while demanding the destruction of the country next door.

I've seen very few who were not Russian disinformation brokers.

[Razgovory]

You had plenty of people defending Assad, denying his crimes, while demanding the destruction of the country next door.

I've seen very few who were not Russian disinformation brokers.

And?

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

I've seen very few who were not Russian disinformation brokers.

And?

And giving any credence to the words of habitual liars is pointless.  Liars don't set standards because liars are not espousing genuinely-held beliefs.  Why do you think taking their words at face value is valid?  By asserting that "we hold different people to different standards" based on what they say, you are doing just that.

[crazy canuck]

You had plenty of people defending Assad, denying his crimes, while demanding the destruction of the country next door.

Can you give an example of that, and who those people were that you are referring to?

[Jacob]

We expect Syrians to be authoritarian fascists. It is more upsetting when the US is.

I think it's about trendlines and about comparisons.

It seems to me that the current Syrian government is less authoritarian Fascist than what went before, and less authoritarian fascist than what one would've expected given the groups involved.

Conversely, the current slide in America seems to be a rapid downward trajectory and even if objectively it's not as bad as the Syrian government it's much worse than American was before (whereas Syria is better than Syria was before); and it's not clear that the downward slide is going to stop anytime soon.

[Razgovory]

You had plenty of people defending Assad, denying his crimes, while demanding the destruction of the country next door.

Can you give an example of that, and who those people were that you are referring to?

Stop the War Coalition, electric intafada, Greyzone, Seymour Hersh, Glenn Greenwald.

[Razgovory]

I've seen very few who were not Russian disinformation brokers.

And?

And giving any credence to the words of habitual liars is pointless.  Liars don't set standards because liars are not espousing genuinely-held beliefs.  Why do you think taking their words at face value is valid?  By asserting that "we hold different people to different standards" based on what they say, you are doing just that.

I'm not following here.  Assad was supported by people in the West primarily for his opposition to Israel.  That such people would repeat Russian lies is not at all surprising since for many people destroying Israel is primarily about stymying American imperialism.  Russians are natural allies of these people, they have the same ultimate enemy.

I'm not sure why we are even discussing Assad here, since he isn't really related to my point.  What I was saying that he hold different people to different standards, and I compared teaching creationism in the US to teaching creationism in Syria now.  The new government has changed the curriculum in the school.  In the US this would be an example of Fascism, in Syria it is not.  In Palestine the activities and ideologies of the main political actors would be labeled fascist.  In Palestine they are not, and we either excuse, or ignore what they say or do.  Different people, different standards.