Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Admiral Yi]

"I learned everything I need to know and make an informed decision about the KKK and African Americans by watching Birth of a Nation and seeing Louis Farrakhan in action."

I never said I learned everything I need to know.  You're arguing against a statement I did not make.  That's the definition of a straw man.

Birth of a Nation and American Psycho lead me to believe that you and Jacob are both committing the error of thinking I drew my conclusions about transgenderism from the Buffalo Bill characters actions and dialogue.  I did not.  I derived them from Hannibal Lecter's exposition of the medical system's decision making process when candidates present themselves.  It's very possible the scriptwriter put incorrect information in Lecter's mouth, but movie analogies won't convince me that they did.

[Admiral Yi]

What are PBH and GAH?

Objective: To investigate changes in mental health over the first year of receiving gender-affirming care and whether initiation of puberty blockers (PBs) and gender-affirming hormones (GAHs) was associated with changes in depression, anxiety, and suicidality.

Then I concede administering PBs and GAHs is a medical necessity, with the following caveats.

It was not a double blind test.

The study was limited to PBs and GAHs and does not extend to surgery.  Therefore the case is not made for surgery as a medical necessity.

No mention is made of the relative efficiency (and cost) of alternative methods of combatting depression and suicidal ideation.

[Jacob]

Re: understanding transgenderism via Silence of the Lamb - IMO that is about equivalent to basing your understanding of American dating culture on American Psycho.

How so?

The average transgender person is not a mass-murderer obsessed with crafting skin suits from their victims as a result of being manipulated by a genius level evil psychiatrist; much like the average American man looking to date women is not a shallow materialistic status-obsessed yuppie who gets his kicks from butchering women. Using those entertainment products to build your understanding of transgenderism/ American dating carries significant risk of ingesting spurious and erroneous data into your analysis and reasoning process.

That said, I think American Psycho is probably a little more accurate to the topic of American dating than Silence of the Lambs is to transgenderism - in that American Psycho does reflect some American dating values to some degree (at least some people are highly status and appearance obsessed when it comes to their status strategies, and many people believe such status matters). Additionally, I expect a number of the actors, writers, and producers of the book and film have been involved in heterosexual dating in America and therefore could bring some personal experience to bear.

As far as I know, the transgender elements (and underlying psychology, implicit or explicit) in Silence of the Lambs was made up whole cloth from the imagination of the author (and creatives of the film) purely as an exercise in constructing shock and horror, with no point of reference to any real life trans experience. I expect (but don't know), that no trans people were involved with the project in a way where they could influence to depiction of the trans gender experience whatsoever.

[Admiral Yi]

I'll give you a chance to read my response to Sophie before I respond.

[Jacob]

I'll give you a chance to read my response to Sophie before I respond.

I read it.

I'm not saying you learned everything from watching Silence of the Lambs, just that it's a poor reference point.

If you're not using it as a reference point at all, then my point isn't particularly relevant to you and we can happily move on. If you are using it as a reference point - to whatever degree - then I think my point remains relevant to the conversation (but we can still move on as far as I'm concerned, I don't think there's much more to be said on this particular sub-topic).

[Admiral Yi]

I'll give you a chance to read my response to Sophie before I respond.

I read it.

I'm not saying you learned everything from watching Silence of the Lambs, just that it's a poor reference point.

If you're not using it as a reference point at all, then my point isn't particularly relevant to you and we can happily move on. If you are using it as a reference point - to whatever degree - then I think my point remains relevant to the conversation (but we can still move on as far as I'm concerned, I don't think there's much more to be said on this particular sub-topic).

But you are saying I took information from the movie which I did not.  Buffalo Bill's character has nothing to do with Lecter's description of medical practices.

[Barrister]

As far as I know, the transgender elements (and underlying psychology, implicit or explicit) in Silence of the Lambs was made up whole cloth from the imagination of the author (and creatives of the film) purely as an exercise in constructing shock and horror, with no point of reference to any real life trans experience. I expect (but don't know), that no trans people were involved with the project in a way where they could influence to depiction of the trans gender experience whatsoever.

As I understand it, there is a "non-zero" connection between cross-dressing/transgenderism and sexual offences.  The extremely controversial term for it is is "autogynephilia" (or AGP).  An AGP male gets sexual pleasure from the idea of being a woman.

The book Silence of the Lambs was written by Thomas Harris.  No idea what motivations he had, nor Jonathan Demme did for the movie.

I took Yi saying that Silence of the Lambs as being one of the sources of his knowledge of trans issues as being a confession of ignorance on the topic, rather than citing it as an authority.  I could be wrong, and no doubt Yi will correct me if I am.

The trans community denies pretty much as a matter of principle denies that any male with AGP is truly "trans".  There's absolutely no way of knowing how many transwomen are transitioning out of having AGP as a sexual fetish, as opposed to having more traditional gender dysphoria.  I suspect, without statistics to back me up, the number of AGP transwomen is small but not zero.

Now just to be clear - just because a bio-male gets a sexual thrill out of the idea of being a woman doesn't mean they're going to be a sexual offender.  Nor does it mean that (in my opinion) their transitioning is any less valid.  You do you.

But there's a reason why sex workers are so often the victims of serial killers.  Part of it is undoubtedly that they are more vulnerable then average.  But the other part of it is that murderous impulse is, in an extremely toxic and terrible way, tied up in deviant sexual desires.

[Jacob]

But you are saying I took information from the movie which I did not.  Buffalo Bill's character has nothing to do with Lecter's description of medical practices.

You mentioned the movie. I made the point that it's a poor point of reference.

The relevance of my point to you specifically is conditional on the degree to which you use the film as a point of reference. I don't think I made any statements about the degree to which you did use it as a reference (and if I did, I'm happy to retract it if it's incorrect). My only point here is that the Silence of the Lambs is a lousy reference point for understanding trans issues, and to the degree that anyone does use it as such they are using a highly dubious source of information.

Additionally, I don't think Lecter's description of medical practices can be taken as authoritative in any shape or form. Lecter is not a real psychiatrist, nor is Thomas Harris.

[Admiral Yi]

The average transgender person is not a mass-murderer obsessed with crafting skin suits from their victims as a result of being manipulated by a genius level evil psychiatrist; much like the average American man looking to date women is not a shallow materialistic status-obsessed yuppie who gets his kicks from butchering women. Using those entertainment products to build your understanding of transgenderism/ American dating carries significant risk of ingesting spurious and erroneous data into your analysis and reasoning process.

Here is where you made a statement about the degree to which you use it as a reference

Actually, come to think of it, the copied text is not about degree.  It's about the information itself.  At no point did I claim the average transgender person is a mass murderer.  In fact the movie didn't make that claim.

[Jacob]

I'm not sure what you're looking to get out of this exchange?

[Admiral Yi]

To refute your poor point of reference assertion.

[PJL]

To refute your poor point of reference assertion.

Not a good idea IMO. By their very nature, movies are a source of entertainment. Even the best ones based on real events tend to be dramatisation which will exaggeration what actually happened. At best they are a useful starting point, but I would not hold much weight in any of them as a good point of reference. You'd be better off as using Wikipedia as a reference.

[Admiral Yi]

Not a good idea IMO. By their very nature, movies are a source of entertainment. Even the best ones based on real events tend to be dramatisation which will exaggeration what actually happened. At best they are a useful starting point, but I would not hold much weight in any of them as a good point of reference. You'd be better off as using Wikipedia as a reference.

What should I type in the search bar to determine if the medical necessity of sex change procedures was a widely discussed topic at the time of the release of Silence of the Lambs?

[grumbler]

What should I type in the search bar to determine if the medical necessity of sex change procedures was a widely discussed topic at the time of the release of Silence of the Lambs?

Why don't you do an actual search of the history of the medical study of sex change procedures, rather than trying to find the Google page that will confirm your assumption?

You should have just left it at "SotL was the first time I encountered the term" and not tried to build a hill to die on.

[Sophie Scholl]

Or, wild idea, maybe leave the decisions to the trans person and the medical professionals they see. That way you're not utilizing widely disproven concepts ("autogynephilia" or any of Blanchard's awfulness) or sources that drew from them (SotL book and movie). For a very, very long time trans people had zero say in their healthcare options or even in how they were defined. With more trans folks entering the medical field, more acceptance, and being treated as able to make decisions and hold rational explanations, the older "research" that was done on us and to us is being overturned, updated, and made into a far, far more legitimate science filled with understanding us.

Also, to Raz's comment: I don't *need* hormones, but my life is far, far more livable with them. I chose to have a gender affirming surgery performed after numerous doctors and medical professionals signed off on it and gave me clearance. It allowed me to abandon medications that had damaging long-term effects for the trade-off of having HRT (hormone replacement therapy) be a more vital part of my treatment plan. Just as, in theory, you could live without any medications you are on, your life is much improved with said medications, correct?