Did the last 40 years see more change than any other period of history?

[Josquius]

So do you remember the world without internet?  Even in Africa they had newspapers.

I remember it yes. Not sure what you mean.
Rural people in most of Africa usually didn't get newspapers no.

[Razgovory]

People who have internet now have electricity.  If there was no internet they'd have TV and newspapers instead.

[Norgy]

There has been no 40 year stretch in all of human history which had more change than 1984 - 2024.

This was posted on Pdox boards by the inestimable Yakman this week.  I disagreed.  I pointed out that the previous 40 years, 1944-1984 saw more changes.  Stuff like the Atomic bomb, decolonization, the end of WW2, the moon landing, etc.  What do you folks think?

I think it is hard to say, because, say 1860-1900 saw some significant change. 1910-1950 too.
But there is a grain of truth to it, because we have seen huge changes in my lifetime. Mostly in communication, in wealth, in transport, in actually understanding the environment isn't just there for abuse.

A period of 40 years is a blink of an eye in human history. And most of it isn't recorded, although I am sure someone will claim to have been around when humans learned how to use fire.

[Sheilbh]

As said for the middle class it was a big deal. Material and in terms of fluffy feels.

But despite some initial promises and hope it didn't change much for regular people - a few positive cases that bucked the trend and more than a few that turned quite negative.

National sovereignty and independence in a free state is not just fluffy feels. It's pretty key to the last two hundred years and is what we're seeing being fought over right now in Ukraine (and the fundamental aspiration of Palestinians).

And often working class or poor people who may not necessarily directly benefit from it have absolutely been key fighting for it, even if they're not shaping the discourse.

Although, to Grumbler's point - there has never been a famine in free post-colonial India. They were a regular occurrence in British India. I'd add there has never been a famine in a free Ireland either - but the population of the island of Ireland is still lower than it was following the one under the British. So I think it's more than possible there are significant material differences from different choices being made even by a problematic local elite because their local issues are not going to be subordinated to imperial interests.

[Josquius]

National sovereignty and independence in a free state is not just fluffy feels. It's pretty key to the last two hundred years and is what we're seeing being fought over right now in Ukraine (and the fundamental aspiration of Palestinians).

And often working class or poor people who may not necessarily directly benefit from it have absolutely been key fighting for it, even if they're not shaping the discourse.

Yes. The working class are the victims of the elites games.
But then that's another strike against decolonisation as a huge change as in much of the world it tended not to be such a massed violent struggle, as popular as that narrative can be.
The regular people were usually just there and swept along with the changes, very often seeming very little actual change coming out to the provinces with them.

Although, to Grumbler's point - there has never been a famine in free post-colonial India. They were a regular occurrence in British India. I'd add there has never been a famine in a free Ireland either - but the population of the island of Ireland is still lower than it was following the one under the British. So I think it's more than possible there are significant material differences from different choices being made even by a problematic local elite because their local issues are not going to be subordinated to imperial interests.

Less famine in modern times has nothing to do with imperialism.
But certainly the green revolution and explosion in the global population has been a huge change of the past century.

We are speaking in very broad scopes here. Local rulers can be better, they can be worse, they can be meh. But im not sure where you're going with this. No matter whether it's a good ruler or a bad ruler very often it meant little to most people.

People who have internet now have electricity.  If there was no internet they'd have TV and newspapers instead.

If WW1 hadn't happened there'd have been X. You can say this for anything.

And you over estimate the state of the electric grid in much of rural Africa- though there too its a very modern development that electricity is spreading fast. The drop in the price of domestic solutions that don't rely on a grid has helped a lot.  Similar to how the mobile Internet has really revolutionised things for them, skipping over the intermediate steps of an electric grid, landlines, and wired Internet.
The continent is changing a lot in recent decades and very under the radar to most in the west.

[Jacob]

Im pretty sure mass communication happened in Africa prior to widespread internet. For example, radio was used to whip up sentiment for the Rwandan gemocide, as I understand it.

[Norgy]

Im pretty sure mass communication happened in Africa prior to widespread internet. For example, radio was used to whip up sentiment for the Rwandan gemocide, as I understand it.

That is my understanding too.

I would say it is hard to underestimate the importance of the railroad too, both for military and civilian measures in most of the Northern hemisphere.

[Josquius]

Im pretty sure mass communication happened in Africa prior to widespread internet. For example, radio was used to whip up sentiment for the Rwandan gemocide, as I understand it.

Going way outside by area but as I understand yeah, radio was fairly big.
Again Africa is a big and varied place. Some of the better linked up parts like Kenya basically had a radio in every family from the 50s/60s whilst more normal you had a handful in a village. Again modern days with cheap batteries and wind up radios have helped a lot.
But this was generally pretty
limited up till modern times. Strictly local.

Purely anecdotally but on Rwanda when talking about how problems could have been solved in the 60s to help think outside the box nobody thought about radio. They all went to town billboards and the like. Which was curious. Probably a sign of times changing today.

[Iormlund]

National sovereignty and independence in a free state is not just fluffy feels. It's pretty key to the last two hundred years and is what we're seeing being fought over right now in Ukraine (and the fundamental aspiration of Palestinians).

I've seen nothing suggesting 'national sovereignty and independence in a free state' is a fundamental aspiration of Palestinians.

The destruction of Israel clearly takes precedence.

[viper37]

There has been no 40 year stretch in all of human history which had more change than 1984 - 2024.

This was posted on Pdox boards by the inestimable Yakman this week.  I disagreed.  I pointed out that the previous 40 years, 1944-1984 saw more changes.  Stuff like the Atomic bomb, decolonization, the end of WW2, the moon landing, etc.  What do you folks think?

Depends on how you define change.

There's a lot of progress with computer technologies, but it's all an evolution from what we had in 1984, it's not really "new" stuff.  Computers are better and faster and can do some things alone (AI).  Politically, we are almost as radicalized as in 1944-1984.

Colonization is still happening in some parts of the world, but some people cheer on it while during 1944-1984 those same people would have frowned upon this practice.

[viper37]

National sovereignty and independence in a free state is not just fluffy feels. It's pretty key to the last two hundred years and is what we're seeing being fought over right now in Ukraine (and the fundamental aspiration of Palestinians).

I've seen nothing suggesting 'national sovereignty and independence in a free state' is a fundamental aspiration of Palestinians.

The destruction of Israel clearly takes precedence.

From a certain point of view, many may feel they will not have 'national sovereignty and independence in a free state' as long as Israel exists.  I can hardly fault that line of thinking in the last 25 years.

[viper37]

My grandma went from not having electricity in their home when she was a little kid to talking to her grandson who was half a continent away on a tablet (even if with help) near the end of her life.

I agree with Raz.

Man your family has kids young.
And Hungary in the 80s sure sounds rough.

I'm not certain my grandparents had electricity in their homes either when they were young.

The house where they lived when I knew them, right beside them did not have running water until after I was born, I think.
It sure did not have a bath because I remember my father and my uncles installing it.

In the stable, there was still a manual pump when I was very young.  A part of the house did not have electricity at first, my dad installed it later for my grandparents.  Anyway, the house was built in... 1901 I think, my paternal grandparents were both born 1921-1925 in the countryside and neither had running water or electricity in their childhood houses.  Neither one had cars.   I don't think my mother had electricity or running water in her first childhood home either.


Electrification of the countryside in Quebec was a thing of the 50s, by a very right wing Premier, Maurice Duplessis ( , except for the ).  Before the last phase of electricity nationalization in the early 60s.

[Norgy]

I'd like to point out that from 1974-2014, one of the biggest changes in attitude is that people realised smoking was bad. In every way. So that pack of cigarettes are no longer part of the soldier's pack.

I think the past forty years has changed several things. We actually see our environment as something to care for. There are wins and losses. In other periods there was fasting and vows of silence. You do not see those these days. But people fast on some diet.

I think since World War II, the world in general became more interdependent as we realised collectively that we should rather share resources through trade than try and send a few ill-equipped panzer groups to capture some oil fields. Obviously, that led to a few coup d'etats here and there.

My dad was a typesetter. In the same paper I work for now. Typesetting was sort of top of the pile among the non-journalist staff. He had his master certificate, and took pride in his work. In 1983, the paper introduced computers to do some of the typesetting, the edited part. And he was picked out to lead this. He was one of the first to learn the basics of what became HTML from Norsk Data. It basically killed his job.

My dad was not a great dad in any way. I have very little admiration for him. But he knew his trade and profession, and he was good at it. The sole reason I mention this is that for the past four decades several trades and professions have just disappeared.

If you were a master craftsman in 1420, making, say, barrels or ships or whatever, you could pass that trade on.

The biggest change is that every industry and business should be "disrupted" now by something new and better. And we're all promised better, bigger, superb jobs. Which all fail to materialise. A bot can do that telemarketing job you were promised after 40 years of working manual labour or whatever.

[PDH]

The last 40 years have seen me go from a fairly optimistic lad to a bitter old man - I would say that is a lot of change.

[grumbler]

I've seen nothing suggesting 'national sovereignty and independence in a free state' is a fundamental aspiration of Palestinians.

I've seen nothing suggesting that you have ever bothered to educate yourself on the topic.