Archaeologists do it in holes: Tales from the stratigraphy

[HVC]

But that location is important as a port to continental Europe. If you're not trading ant significant levels outside the island would it matter?

[Sheilbh]

It's a while since I read the analysis of the digs going on there.  But the growing consensus seems to be that part of our issue in understanding that world is we view it through the lens of the South being the centre of things.  But we need to flip the orientation around to understand the Neolithic world.

Interesting - and in GB there does seem to be a growing number of finds of Neolithic north-south connections. So there's a macehead from the Hebrides buried in Stonehenge, the remains of cattle and pigs in Stonehenge which are likely from Scotland and, as mentioned, Grooved Ware pottery originating in Orkney but found all over GB (until the huge population replacement by people bearing beakers ).

The thing that I find particularly interesting about that is that in the realm of myth there are records and signs of a sense of "Britishness" within myths - particularly from Wales. There are origin myths of the British and myths of Britain that are shared - they take place and involve characters from all over. It's England and Scotland that are (in their mythic origins) later inventions but then become politically the primordial states that becomes, politically, British.

So it seems really interesting that there was some form of communication and perhaps some degree of shared cultures with sacred sites in the South of England and the islands off the top of Scotland. Not for the first time but maybe there is something in those myths

Other important places tend to have similar geographically sensible reasons behind them.

I don't know if that's true necessarily - or more what matters changes over time.

But I'm particularly unsure if it's true if these were basically sacred spaces/areas that would be a centre of gathering for many communities.

Also the other really obvious fact with Orkney is it doesn't have trees. So they had to build out of stone. It seems unlikely given the scale - but perhaps it wasn't that unusual it's just the remains of other stone age communities don't exist because they were wood-based societies and/or they were picked apart by later societies while Orkney remained relatively unpopulated?

But that location is important as a port to continental Europe. If you're not trading ant significant levels outside the island would it matter?

And to be honest I am surprised at the signs there was even significant levels of trading/communication within these isles at that stage.

[HVC]

Could also be something as simple as they were Sun worshipper* and when you're that far north you have really long days. More time In the presence of your god so becomes a religious site


*sun and moon worshipping was pretty big in a lot of earlier mythologies I think, at least based on religious artifacts.

*Edit* longer dusks and dawn so the sun is even closer and longer on the horizon. That's it, I solved it. Everyone can go home, I'm an archeological genius

[HVC]

Also the other really obvious fact with Orkney is it doesn't have trees. So they had to build out of stone. It seems unlikely given the scale - but perhaps it wasn't that unusual it's just the remains of other stone age communities don't exist because they were wood-based societies and/or they were picked apart by later societies while Orkney remained relatively unpopulated?

Also, I think the orkneys had trees in the past. That all changed when the sheep arrived (cue avatar the last air bender theme). Most of Scotland was heavily forested until climate change and sheep literally changed the landscape.

[crazy canuck]

That's super interesting.

I wonder what combination of things that made the culture of the Orkney's so appealing.

It's a while since I read the analysis of the digs going on there.  But the growing consensus seems to be that part of our issue in understanding that world is we view it through the lens of the South being the centre of things.  But we need to flip the orientation around to understand the Neolithic world.

Which still leaves a big question of why.
London is the capital and biggest city of Britain for very logical geographic reasons of being on the controlling point of this large river facing south east towards Europe.
Other important places tend to have similar geographically sensible reasons behind them.
Considering we're talking a much smaller scale than cities here, what is it about Orkney that makes it so specially suited for the Neolithic world?
Or was there some illogical religious reason about north being special? (why? what?)

You just did the very thing most post suggested you should not do.  Start with a premise that London is the centre now so why not then.  Why not start with the fact that London was a swamp then.

[Josquius]

That's super interesting.

I wonder what combination of things that made the culture of the Orkney's so appealing.

It's a while since I read the analysis of the digs going on there.  But the growing consensus seems to be that part of our issue in understanding that world is we view it through the lens of the South being the centre of things.  But we need to flip the orientation around to understand the Neolithic world.

Which still leaves a big question of why.
London is the capital and biggest city of Britain for very logical geographic reasons of being on the controlling point of this large river facing south east towards Europe.
Other important places tend to have similar geographically sensible reasons behind them.
Considering we're talking a much smaller scale than cities here, what is it about Orkney that makes it so specially suited for the Neolithic world?
Or was there some illogical religious reason about north being special? (why? what?)

You just did the very thing most post suggested you should not do.  Start with a premise that London is the centre now so why not then.  Why not start with the fact that London was a swamp then.

... Huh?
This doesn't really make sense.
The conditions in the neolithic age were very different to the modern age.
What is a big advantage now (/over the past millennium) was not necessarily so then.

But that location is important as a port to continental Europe. If you're not trading ant significant levels outside the island would it matter?

Yes.
But that doesn't change the fundamental point of my post. They clearly weren't following this reasoning. So what reasoning were they following.

[viper37]

6 tonne altar stone at the centre of Stonehenge didn't come from Wales but the Far North of Scotland about 500 miles away:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c207lqdn755o

Given that I think we didn't really understand how they got the rest of the stones from Wales this is adding another level of complication

Very impressive.



https://x.com/pittsmike/status/1823737067857400210

Really nice overview of this discovery and how the Orkneys were a massive cultic center in the Neolithic. And this was an overland journey.

I do not know the geography, but I'm leaning toward a boat ride for most of the way.  Aren't there rivers going inland to near where Stonehenge is located that could have been used as a drop off point?

During the neolithic period, humans weren't equipped for long road transportation like in Romans in the Antiquity, so I'm skeptical for the overland route.  No carriage IIRC, only sleigh?  It seems too much for that distance.

[Tamas]

Another piece of evidence that Orkney was a main centre of Stone Age culture?

Yeah - I think the next stage will be working out the quarry but it could be on the mainland, like Caithness. But I wonder if there is some Orcadian Stone Age culture across the far north with, as you say, Orkney was a cult centre. And also some form of communications across GB?

I believe one of the theories of Stonehenge was basically that it was built at parties/festivals (I think similar theories about the Pyramids now).

You go and try build a pyramid that will stand for thousands of years, with volunteers who gathered to have a good time. I am sceptical.

[crazy canuck]

You may be underestimating the importance of festivals and feasting in non modern times.

Were they having a good time? Undoubtedly.  Was that the only reason for doing it.  Certainly not.

[HVC]

Another piece of evidence that Orkney was a main centre of Stone Age culture?

Yeah - I think the next stage will be working out the quarry but it could be on the mainland, like Caithness. But I wonder if there is some Orcadian Stone Age culture across the far north with, as you say, Orkney was a cult centre. And also some form of communications across GB?

I believe one of the theories of Stonehenge was basically that it was built at parties/festivals (I think similar theories about the Pyramids now).

You go and try build a pyramid that will stand for thousands of years, with volunteers who gathered to have a good time. I am sceptical.

I thought the going theory was that it was built using labour as a tax method that Egypt had?

[crazy canuck]

Another piece of evidence that Orkney was a main centre of Stone Age culture?

Yeah - I think the next stage will be working out the quarry but it could be on the mainland, like Caithness. But I wonder if there is some Orcadian Stone Age culture across the far north with, as you say, Orkney was a cult centre. And also some form of communications across GB?

I believe one of the theories of Stonehenge was basically that it was built at parties/festivals (I think similar theories about the Pyramids now).

You go and try build a pyramid that will stand for thousands of years, with volunteers who gathered to have a good time. I am sceptical.

I thought the going theory was that it was built using labour as a tax method that Egypt had?

I have not read that.  But thinking about it, that would have required an administrative state that didn't exist until it was developed in Eqypt and Mesopotamia.

When thinking about what could bring together the numbers required over the years required, festivals and feasting seems a good theory.

[Legbiter]

Article in the Spectator on the logistics of transporting the altar stone from NE Scotland to Salisbury.

How was the Stonehenge Altar Stone moved from Scotland?

[HVC]

I worded it poorly, I was talking about the theory of how the pyramids where built by tax labour rather then group gatherings as mentioned by sheilbh

[Sheilbh]

You go and try build a pyramid that will stand for thousands of years, with volunteers who gathered to have a good time. I am sceptical.

I think it is interesting that at a moment when history of more documented/textual times is particularly interested in coercion and coercive power, that archaeology and less documentary history is instead proposing interepretations of their period that increasingly are absent of coercion. Whether the pyramids or the challenge to the theory of agriculture leading to social hierarchy and the start of repressive state functions.

In both cases I'm sure it's very interesting and adding to our understanding but as with all history is at least as revealing of our times and preoccupations as of the period they're studying.

[Jacob]

Article in the Spectator on the logistics of transporting the altar stone from NE Scotland to Salisbury.

How was the Stonehenge Altar Stone moved from Scotland?

That's a fascinating - and persuasive IMO - point he makes.