Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[viper37]

The desire to crown yourself emperor doesn't exactly portray a man looking for peace and tranquility

The crowning formula was varied to use a plural form ("Coronet vos..." instead of "Coronet te..."), precisely because the Coronation of Joséphine followed immediately after the assumption of the Crown by Napoleon. As for the omitted Roman formula Accipe coronam..., which depicted the monarch as receiving his crown from the Church, its use would have clashed with Napoleon's decision to crown himself. Historian J. David Markham, who also serves as head of the International Napoleonic Society,^[13] alleged in his book Napoleon For Dummies "Napoleon's detractors like to say that he snatched the crown from the pope, or that this was an act of unbelievable arrogance, but neither of those charges holds water. The most likely explanation is that Napoleon was symbolizing that he was becoming emperor based on his own merits and the will of the people, and not in the name of a religious consecration. The pope knew about this move from the beginning and had no objection (not that it would have mattered)


From Wikipedia, but it's sourced.  He never took the crown from the Pope.  He crowned himself to distinguish his reign from the monarchy.

[HVC]

I didn't mean physically making himself emperor by taking the crown, I meant the desire to be emperor at all wasn't satisfied "just" being a king.

[Sheilbh]

I didn't mean physically making himself emperor by taking the crown, I meant the desire to be emperor at all wasn't satisfied "just" being a king.

Yeah and even on those terms, while that is a fair point by the head of the International Napoleonic Society. But I don't think the main thing people are observing in Napoleon crowning himself isn't that he "snatched the crown from the pope" but the symbolic meaning of crowning himself.

It certainly includes that he was becoming emperor on his own merits - but I think it's suggestive of more than just that

[Tamas]

All I need to know is that the Hungarian nobility was against Napoleon, so he couldn't had been too bad

[grumbler]

I'm not an expert (and more pro-Napoleon than 99% of Brits), so I think there were points there could be durable peace - but that would require some form of reconciliation and role for the UK who weren't going to be locked out. But in general I think successful military commanders who come to power will always be likely to do a bit of conquering and war making. It was their route to success.

Britain had its peace in 1802-1803.  It was the UK that started what would become the War of the Third Coalition, not Napoleon, and did so for entirely self-interested purposes, not to defend anyone from the evil Boney.

[grumbler]

The desire to crown yourself emperor doesn't exactly portray a man looking for peace and tranquility

It's precisely to achieve peace and stability that he did so.  There had been several assassination attempts and he felt that he needed the power to name his own successor in order to ensure that a successful assassination would not result in civil war.  Note also that he was "Emperor of the French," not "Emperor of France."

[The Minsky Moment]

If Napoleon had really cared about succession, he would have followed the Roman example who forms he parroted and named an adopted successor from one of his leading marshals or statesmen.  Instead, there was a revolving door of his Corsican mafia siblings, with Joseph effectively out when installed in Spain and Louis being banished. Louis was probably the best of them but committed the unforgivable crimes of not groveling to his brother. Statesmanlike concern for the good of the commonwealth does not seem to have been the key motivating factor.

[Sheilbh]

Britain had its peace in 1802-1803.  It was the UK that started what would become the War of the Third Coalition, not Napoleon, and did so for entirely self-interested purposes, not to defend anyone from the evil Boney.

But Britain existed and had interests, just like Austria and Russia. The interests were different as an off-shore imperial power but I think Napoleon was far less able to ever accept them (or understand them possibly).

As I say any durable peace would need to involve reconciliation and a role for the British in Europe - denying that or attempting to freeze them out was an inevitable path to war. And if you manage to get the British and Russians to ally then you've fucked up in some way.

If Napoleon had really cared about succession, he would have followed the Roman example who forms he parroted and named an adopted successor from one of his leading marshals or statesmen.  Instead, there was a revolving door of his Corsican mafia siblings, with Joseph effectively out when installed in Spain and Louis being banished. Louis was probably the best of them but committed the unforgivable crimes of not groveling to his brother. Statesmanlike concern for the good of the commonwealth does not seem to have been the key motivating factor.

I only know anything about this from Simon Schama's Patriots and Liberators and I found Louis very sympathetic.

[Valmy]

If Napoleon had really cared about succession, he would have followed the Roman example who forms he parroted and named an adopted successor from one of his leading marshals or statesmen.  Instead, there was a revolving door of his Corsican mafia siblings, with Joseph effectively out when installed in Spain and Louis being banished. Louis was probably the best of them but committed the unforgivable crimes of not groveling to his brother. Statesmanlike concern for the good of the commonwealth does not seem to have been the key motivating factor.

He was pretty straightforward about trying to establish some sort of Bonaparte dynasty, that somehow that would secure his legacy and make it unlikely somebody would assassinate him.

How that did that beyond just naming Marshall Massena, or whomever, as his successor I don't know. Maybe he was concerned a pro-Massena faction would overthrow him and that was unlikely to happen to install Lucien.

[Valmy]

I didn't mean physically making himself emperor by taking the crown, I meant the desire to be emperor at all wasn't satisfied "just" being a king.

Emperor had a Roman thing going and the French Republic was comparing itself a lot to the Roman Republic.

I mean he wasn't exactly shy on the Caesar symbology.

[Josquius]

So I hear mega Olympics security restrictions have started in Paris which is basically the 15 minute city conspiracy nonsense made real with needing QR codes to get into different parts of the city?
Gallic conspiracy nuts going off it?

[HVC]

On the funnier (?) Side of the olympics the athletes are displeased with the antisex cardboard beds

[Sheilbh]

Well that's not very French

[Valmy]

But...the sex in the Olympic Village is weirdly one of the most wholesome parts of the Olympics.

All those people from all over the world coming together to hook up for two magical weeks

How could Paris, of all places, crack down on that? 

[HVC]

All those people from all over the world coming together to hook up for two magical weeks

Where STDs from around the world come to compete and see who's the strongest