Young People and Politics

[Tamas]

I'd also say, Tamas, how you got duped shows the insidious nature of false information online. It took only a scrap of a misleading article for you to agree zealots were trying to take over.  Now imagine you were a conservative leaning person receiving the same info. Would have just confirmed all your biases and wouldn't have been based on reality.

Sure but these work this well because they have at least some ground in reality. Things like the furour around Rowling (regardless of who is right) and other such things.

And while the actual caveat by the organisation is nowhere near as bad as the "article" claimed it is a very mild symptom still - if everyone had to make sure to write such ridiculously disclaimers every time there was a chance of offending some members of a minority the size of trans men, communication would become untenable.

The only reason they did it is that they wanted to avoid a unreasonable response from the hysteric fringe of a disadvantaged minority on a hot button issue.

[Hamilcar]

I'm curious if folks have thoughts on the possible causes, as well as possible consequences - both long and short term.

You vote for anti-establishment parties when you feel that the establishment doesn't have your interests at heart. As Europe rapidly ages and older voters vote themselves a secure retirement at the cost of the young, they become more radicalized. The tragedy is that young people don't vote, so their taxes will only go up and their living standards down as the old suck them dry.

.

And they lash out at the establishment by voting for parties that are even more establishment than mainstream conservatives could ever dare to be these days.

Most of the "far right" parties in Europe today are positioning themselves as antiestablishment.

[chipwich]

Fair enough, I was duped, but I think my point on the culture war stands. The current frontline for sexual minorities is the very definition of genders and I wouldn't be surprised if the push back against that is giving less tolerant people the perceived carte blanche to admit to opposing gay marriage as well.

The Toroto Sun didn't dupe anyone lackwit. Pinknews lied by claiming the that Sun claimed that the charity "replaced the word "cervix". The Sun did not do so.

NO medical professional should EVER use the word "front hole" to describe a cervix under any conditions. It is a pornified mockery of human anatomy.

The fact that you have Garbon and Pinknews marching to the defense of "front hole" shows that homosexuals disrespect women's bodies and gay liberation was a mistake.

[garbon]

Fair enough, I was duped, but I think my point on the culture war stands. The current frontline for sexual minorities is the very definition of genders and I wouldn't be surprised if the push back against that is giving less tolerant people the perceived carte blanche to admit to opposing gay marriage as well.

The Toroto Sun didn't dupe anyone lackwit. Pinknews lied by claiming the that Sun claimed that the charity "replaced the word "cervix". The Sun did not do so.

NO medical professional should EVER use the word "front hole" to describe a cervix under any conditions. It is a pornified mockery of human anatomy.

The fact that you have Garbon and Pinknews marching to the defense of "front hole" shows that homosexuals disrespect women's bodies and gay liberation was a mistake.

Ignore

[garbon]

I'd also say, Tamas, how you got duped shows the insidious nature of false information online. It took only a scrap of a misleading article for you to agree zealots were trying to take over.  Now imagine you were a conservative leaning person receiving the same info. Would have just confirmed all your biases and wouldn't have been based on reality.

Sure but these work this well because they have at least some ground in reality. Things like the furour around Rowling (regardless of who is right) and other such things.

And while the actual caveat by the organisation is nowhere near as bad as the "article" claimed it is a very mild symptom still - if everyone had to make sure to write such ridiculously disclaimers every time there was a chance of offending some members of a minority the size of trans men, communication would become untenable.

The only reason they did it is that they wanted to avoid a unreasonable response from the hysteric fringe of a disadvantaged minority on a hot button issue.

Or they wanted to make sure that if they are trying to increase testing in an underserviced group, it might be useful to communicate with them on their terms.  You are presupposing that their language is because otherwise 'zealots' will come after them. That's your own baggage as perhaps someone too permanently online.

As someone online, I'd note that there will always be some people who complain about something. I'm not sure we say essentialise complaints from say cisgender individuals the same we might from a few transgender individuals.

[Tamas]

If you mean that "cis" complaints ignored more bravely than trans complaints, I would agree.

[garbon]

If you mean that "cis" complaints ignored more bravely than trans complaints, I would agree.

Ha, the term 'Karen' has arisen specifically out of recognition that white, cisgender complaints were receiving disproportionate deference.

[HVC]

My understanding wasn't that it was getting excessive deference, just that white women can be annoying and shrill

*Edit* like "bye Felisha" or " Felisha" was used to mock annoying black women. Is that still a thing, or has Karen subsumed them all? I'm not cool anymore so I don't know

[Tamas]

My understanding wasn't that it was getting excessive deference, just that white women can be annoying and shrill

Same.

[garbon]

My understanding wasn't that it was getting excessive deference, just that white women can be annoying and shrill

*Edit* like "bye Felisha" or " Felisha" was used to mock annoying black women. Is that still a thing, or has Karen subsumed them all? I'm not cool anymore so I don't know

Do you not recall the numerous examples when that was first gaining popularity of white women calling the cops on black people because they were black?

[HVC]

My understanding wasn't that it was getting excessive deference, just that white women can be annoying and shrill

*Edit* like "bye Felisha" or " Felisha" was used to mock annoying black women. Is that still a thing, or has Karen subsumed them all? I'm not cool anymore so I don't know

Do you not recall the numerous examples when that was first gaining popularity of white women calling the cops on black people because they were black?

Could be different priorities in our views, but my recollections was it gained popularity from annoying customers (let me speak to your manager) linked with the how to spot a Karen ( ie the  "Karen haircut")

[Josquius]

The Toroto Sun didn't dupe anyone lackwit. Pinknews lied by claiming the that Sun claimed that the charity "replaced the word "cervix". The Sun did not do so.

NO medical professional should EVER use the word "front hole" to describe a cervix under any conditions. It is a pornified mockery of human anatomy.

The fact that you have Garbon and Pinknews marching to the defense of "front hole" shows that homosexuals disrespect women's bodies and gay liberation was a mistake.

Why shouldn't they use this word?
Its basic Listening Skills 101 to echo the other person's language.
If a you're a GP and a guy comes in complaining of a pain in his Hank (intentionally ridiculous example), and you deduce thats what he calls his dick, then using that word back at him really does help to get him to open up about the issue and engage with the treatment.
Doctors basically never use  all the correct terms they know with most patients. It's not helpful.

I'm curious if folks have thoughts on the possible causes, as well as possible consequences - both long and short term.

You vote for anti-establishment parties when you feel that the establishment doesn't have your interests at heart. As Europe rapidly ages and older voters vote themselves a secure retirement at the cost of the young, they become more radicalized. The tragedy is that young people don't vote, so their taxes will only go up and their living standards down as the old suck them dry.

.

And they lash out at the establishment by voting for parties that are even more establishment than mainstream conservatives could ever dare to be these days.

Most of the "far right" parties in Europe today are positioning themselves as antiestablishment.

Yes, they position themselves that way.
But much like Trump they're often very establishment indeed and many of their policies are designed around deepening inequalities/strengthening the establishment

[garbon]

My understanding wasn't that it was getting excessive deference, just that white women can be annoying and shrill

*Edit* like "bye Felisha" or " Felisha" was used to mock annoying black women. Is that still a thing, or has Karen subsumed them all? I'm not cool anymore so I don't know

Do you not recall the numerous examples when that was first gaining popularity of white women calling the cops on black people because they were black?

Could be different priorities in our views, but my recollections was it gained popularity from annoying customers (let me speak to your manager) linked with the how to spot a Karen ( ie the  "Karen haircut")

No, less difference in priorities and more you just focused on the anodyne elements without awareness of history/context.

Check wiki. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(slang)

[HVC]

My understanding wasn't that it was getting excessive deference, just that white women can be annoying and shrill

*Edit* like "bye Felisha" or " Felisha" was used to mock annoying black women. Is that still a thing, or has Karen subsumed them all? I'm not cool anymore so I don't know

Do you not recall the numerous examples when that was first gaining popularity of white women calling the cops on black people because they were black?

Could be different priorities in our views, but my recollections was it gained popularity from annoying customers (let me speak to your manager) linked with the how to spot a Karen ( ie the  "Karen haircut")

No, less difference in priorities and more you just focused on the anodyne elements without awareness of history/context.

Check wiki. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(slang)

But that's my point. One's priorities, or I guess preconceptions might be a better word, colours how someone views the term. Ask 100 black people there view on Karen and it's use and you'll get a majority seeing the racialized view, ask 100 white people and you'll get a majority seeing it how tamas and I did. 

I don't think either one is right or wrong per se. It's the context on how one sees it. Even going back to the Felicia thing, within a black culture there might be a separate understanding then the one I had as a periphery to my black friends using it.

But thanks for the link, it's interesting and a  view I hadn't fully considered (the historical examples of other names was especially interesting)

[Josquius]

I do remember Karen's complaining about black people for being black in public was a big thing around the term taking off.
Though yes it's not necessarily about someone being racist and more about generally this sort of woman being hyper priveleged (more based on class and wealth than race in my book as whitey mcpoorface)