Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

Honest question because I have no idea: did the Palestinian organisation(s) in power at the time accept the 1967 borders as the borders of Palestine before they lost said borders?

There has never been any agreement by any organization or state representing the Palestinians that has officially recognized the 1967 borders that I am aware of. My big criticism of the PA from early in this thread is their refusal to accept defeat and get whatever terms they can and playing for time has so far only hurt their position. That may in the long term "best interests" of Palestinian nationalism (maybe...) but it sure has hurt the Palestinian people.

But I suspect a move by the PA to do that might result in something similar to a 1995 Rabin type result. It is probable that there are just too many insane people on both sides of the conflict for it to ever resolve in a way that any moral person would like to see. So instead we are getting what we are getting. I just wish my country had nothing to do with it as it seems very unlikely it will result in something positive for the United States.

[Syt]

https://nypost.com/2024/04/27/us-news/nyu-professor-says-hamas-loving-students-need-to-have-more-sex/

College students aren't having enough sex — so they're turning to anti-Israel protests: NYU professor

NYU professor Scott Galloway said that college campuses were increasingly becoming reminiscent of Nazi Germany — and attributed the reason partly to young people not having enough sex.

"We need to enjoy sex," Galloway offered to some initial confusion during an appearance on "Real Time" with Bill Maher Friday.

"I think part of the problem is young people aren't having enough sex so they go on the hunt for fake threats and the most popular threat through history is [antisemitism]."

Galloway appeared on the show with former CNN host Don Lemon — who later told The Post he was inclined to agree with the observation.

"It would definitely take the edge off," Lemon chimed in by phone.

Galloway said American society would not survive if its people could not rally behind noble causes — adding that much of what he was seeing reminded him of the early rise of Hitler.

"It's easy to poke fun at these kids, but history has a way of repeating itself, and this is how it starts. In '30s Germany, a progressive community, a thriving gay community, excellent academic institutions. And how it started, was it was fashionable to wear a brown shirt and mock students at the University of Vienna,' Galloway said.

"And quite frankly, I'm really disappointed more Jews aren't speaking out."

Galloway repeated his observation which went viral this week that if students at terrorist encampments were chanting slogans calling for the death of black or gays they would be swiftly stamped out.

And that professors who did so would never work again.

[Valmy]

I don't know. The Boomers in the 1960s seemed like they were getting laid like crazy with all their free love and they still protested everything.

[Razgovory]

Well, it's the reason why I'm such an asshole.

[Josquius]

Israel has controlled all of that land since 1967. That chart doesn't track control of the West Bank, it tracks housing developments within Israeli territory.

yeah, you know fine well that military control and integrating land as part of your country settled with your people are quite different things.
Israel has been actively expanding slice by slice for decades. This is core to the problem.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Israel has controlled all of that land since 1967. That chart doesn't track control of the West Bank, it tracks housing developments within Israeli territory.

yeah, you know fine well that military control and integrating land as part of your country settled with your people are quite different things.
Israel has been actively expanding slice by slice for decades. This is core to the problem.

There's a relevant bit of dialogue in the excellent 1968 film The Lion in Winter, starring Peter O'Toole as King Henry II, in a scene with Tim Dalton as French King Philip II.

Philip II: It's their wedding or the Vexin back. Those are the terms you made with Louis.                 

Henry II: True, but academic, lad. The Vexin's mine. 
                 
Philip II: By what authority?

Henry II: It's got my troops all over it. That makes it mine.

Whose soldiers have been all over the West Bank for the last 57 years? Israel's. What country did it used to belong to? Jordan. Does Jordan still claim the West Bank? No, it renounced those claims in 1994.

The settlements occur on Israeli controlled territory, which is the entire West Bank.

[Razgovory]

It really isn't.

[OttoVonBismarck]

It really isn't.

Whose is it? You do realize Palestine has never existed as a state, right?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Jihadi Joe Biden's continued attempts to handcuff the IDF are not popular in America--and we will punish him for it come November:

An overwhelming majority of Americans believe Israel should go ahead with an offensive in Rafah in order to end the war against Hamas, according to a new Harvard CAPS Harris poll.

The question posed to respondents is "should Israel move forward with an operation in Rafah to finish the war with Hamas, doing its best to avoid civilian casualties even though there will be casualties, or should it back off now and allow Hamas to continue running Gaza?"

In response, 72% say Israel should move forward with the operation while 28% say it should back off and allow Hamas to keep ruling Gaza.

Overall, 78% of poll participants say Hamas show be removed from power but are divide don what should come after, with 30% saying Israel should administer Gaza, 35% the Palestinian Authority and the other 35% a new authority established with Arab countries.

[Barrister]

It really isn't.

Whose is it? You do realize Palestine has never existed as a state, right?

I mean lots of countries that exist now have never existed in the past.  There was never an independent Slovenia or Slovakia until the 1990s - doesn't mean the statehood of either of those countries should be doubted.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yes, I would say it would be valid to doubt the statehood of Slovakia before it existed. States exist or they don't. Before Slovakia existed, that territory was part of Czechoslovakia. Palestine is not a state by any measure. It lacks external and internal legitimacy, does not negotiate its own foreign relations, does not field its own military, does not have sovereign claim to its territory.

There is no Palestine.

[Razgovory]

It really isn't.

Whose is it? You do realize Palestine has never existed as a state, right?

Disregard.  That was suppose to be a response to Tyr but I accidentally deleted his post.

[Tamas]

Jihadi Joe Biden's continued attempts to handcuff the IDF are not popular in America--and we will punish him for it come November:

An overwhelming majority of Americans believe Israel should go ahead with an offensive in Rafah in order to end the war against Hamas, according to a new Harvard CAPS Harris poll.

The question posed to respondents is "should Israel move forward with an operation in Rafah to finish the war with Hamas, doing its best to avoid civilian casualties even though there will be casualties, or should it back off now and allow Hamas to continue running Gaza?"

In response, 72% say Israel should move forward with the operation while 28% say it should back off and allow Hamas to keep ruling Gaza.

Overall, 78% of poll participants say Hamas show be removed from power but are divide don what should come after, with 30% saying Israel should administer Gaza, 35% the Palestinian Authority and the other 35% a new authority established with Arab countries.

It does reinforce my earlier view when it was only Labour here in the UK embroiled in the "should we Brits single-handedly end the war by a simlle declaration made by the opposition party?" thing. Namely that the majority is at "best" ambivalent to the conflict and likely would prefer Israel to win it. The Left is very much in a pan-Muslim echo chamber on this one.

[Admiral Yi]

Apparently every single time some Palestinians didn't just let some Israelis do whatever they wanted with zero complaint since the 1940s.

Like in 1948, when Palestinians attacked Israelis who were living on land they had bought from Ottoman absentee landlords, that in your mind is Palestinians "defending their land?"

[Josquius]

Whose soldiers have been all over the West Bank for the last 57 years? Israel's. What country did it used to belong to? Jordan. Does Jordan still claim the West Bank? No, it renounced those claims in 1994.

The settlements occur on Israeli controlled territory, which is the entire West Bank.

Well yes.
This isn't in doubt. It's kind of the whole point here.
Israel exploiting it's military control and it's effective blocking of Palestinian attempts to create a functional state to step by step seize the land for themselves.
The explanation for how Israel is getting away with it doesn't in any way make it justified or legal.

It really isn't.

Whose is it? You do realize Palestine has never existed as a state, right?

Again why on earth does this matter?
Do the people of Liechtenstein possess some special extra rights of self determination that the people of random Swiss communities of a similar size don't just because accident of history has determined their particular community is a country?
Is it cool for Russia to seize parts of Ukraine since it's not like they're taking a country or anything - how much of a country would he too much? Must they leave a majority behind or would just a Knights of Malta style office building somewhere be cool?
Would Russia conquering the baltics be OK? They are countries but awfully modern ones that hadn't existed until little over a century ago.

Apparently every single time some Palestinians didn't just let some Israelis do whatever they wanted with zero complaint since the 1940s.

Like in 1948, when Palestinians attacked Israelis who were living on land they had bought from Ottoman absentee landlords, that in your mind is Palestinians "defending their land?"

cases like that you mention wouldn't be. In the same time period however you had Israelis cleansing Palestinian villages, those would be.
Then there's considerable less headline grabbing minor incidents across the years too.