Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

Anonymous communication is an ancient and sacrosanct thing. Many of the U.S. Founding Fathers wrote some of their most important things under nom de plume's like Publius.

[Josquius]

Anonymous communication is an ancient and sacrosanct thing. Many of the U.S. Founding Fathers wrote some of their most important things under nom de plume's like Publius.

Writing a book is quite a different thing to having the ability to send continuous coordinated directly targeted hate to anyone you and your friends decide is worth it.

[Barrister]

Anonymous communication is an ancient and sacrosanct thing. Many of the U.S. Founding Fathers wrote some of their most important things under nom de plume's like Publius.

Public communication is also very different.  It used to be you could say something on the streetcorner and everyone within earshot would hear you.  Now you can say it on Twitter and potentially millions will see it.

Anonymous communication also used to appear quite shady.  I don't know about revolutionary times, but 30 years ago it was all a world of photocopied underground magazines or trash books like The Turner Novels or the Unabomber manifesto.  Now of course anonymous posters can have tremendous influence (think Q drops, or Catturd2).

We're all trying to navigate a world where how we communicate is very different from the past.

[Admiral Yi]

What we did have was a pretty clear threat to a business not from the person employed but from those shouting about them being anti semites.

What were they threatening to do?

[Razgovory]

But that's just it. I think the only way to evaluate is in the specifics of the transgression. And if the transgression is not targeted at one's own identity, it is easier to wave it by as not warranting any reaction.

Yeah for sure.

Nonetheless, the dynamics by which one transgressor gets subjected to long term consequences while (most) others do not,  often seemingly independently of the seriousness of the transgression, seems arbitrary and problematic to me.

I'll note here that I'm not speaking exclusively about social justice and political related topics but also things like (alleged) animal cruelty, crappy customer and other social behaviour, (alleged) petty crime, road rage, and the like.

That said the main driver of my current ambivalence on the topic is seeing how elements on both sides in the current Israel-Palestinian conflict are attempting (sometimes successfully) to deploy this kind of social media "fuck around and find out" consequence-visiting on their opponents. And since I'm not in a place where I have the moral conviction that "everyone on this side is evil, and everyone on that side stands with truth and justice sufficiently that whatever wrongs they commit are acceptable" I find that the problematic elements of the dynamic stand out much more starkly.

You can posit that that position is informed by privilege, but honestly I think it's more informed by the fact that I don't strongly identify with a side in this particular case and can see the humanity of most of the people involved (and maybe that's a privilege). Normally I do identify with one of the sides (and typically I believe we're on the same side in most things, privilege notwithstanding), and I'm reasonably prone to indulge in "and fuck you, and you... and you deserve what you got you fucker. This is justice being served and it's oh so satisfying", much like many people.

It would be so much easier if the person looked like this

[Josquius]

What we did have was a pretty clear threat to a business not from the person employed but from those shouting about them being anti semites.

What were they threatening to do?

Threats don't have to be explicit to be worrying.
Back when I had fascists threatening my family it was never explitilcy saying anyone would get hurt. Just they'd be seeing me around, if my parents still lived in such and such address, I better be careful with what I say, etc...

For a business little things can hurt. They make a lot of noise about how it's in line with anti semites, no doubt leading to review bombing and all manner of other petty sabotage that really adds up.

[Admiral Yi]

Threats don't have to be explicit to be worrying.
Back when I had fascists threatening my family it was never explitilcy saying anyone would get hurt. Just they'd be seeing me around, if my parents still lived in such and such address, I better be careful with what I say, etc...

For a business little things can hurt. They make a lot of noise about how it's in line with anti semites, no doubt leading to review bombing and all manner of other petty sabotage that really adds up.

So you think they were implicitly threatening bad Yelp reviews.  Ok.

[Josquius]

Threats don't have to be explicit to be worrying.
Back when I had fascists threatening my family it was never explitilcy saying anyone would get hurt. Just they'd be seeing me around, if my parents still lived in such and such address, I better be careful with what I say, etc...

For a business little things can hurt. They make a lot of noise about how it's in line with anti semites, no doubt leading to review bombing and all manner of other petty sabotage that really adds up.

So you think they were implicitly threatening bad Yelp reviews.  Ok.

Thats the least of it. And this kind of thing can have a huge impact on a business.
When its a simple matter to just kneejerk fire somebody at the slightest hint negative attention could be coming your way, then you'll do it.

[Admiral Yi]

Thats the least of it. And this kind of thing can have a huge impact on a business.
When its a simple matter to just kneejerk fire somebody at the slightest hint negative attention could be coming your way, then you'll do it.

This exchange has made me realize something that I had not before.  I had thought before that free will and coercion were a dychotomy.  Now I realize it's a continium.

That being said, potential loss of business still falls on the side of free will for me.  Loss of customers is a normal part of business.  You respond however you want.

[Josquius]

Thats the least of it. And this kind of thing can have a huge impact on a business.
When its a simple matter to just kneejerk fire somebody at the slightest hint negative attention could be coming your way, then you'll do it.

This exchange has made me realize something that I had not before.  I had thought before that free will and coercion were a dychotomy.  Now I realize it's a continium.

That being said, potential loss of business still falls on the side of free will for me.  Loss of customers is a normal part of business.  You respond however you want.

As said I do think the difference is between is it the person themselves being a problem or is it people who have decided they're a problem.
You have a worker who has a habit of shouting the n word at people- yeah...better fire him. Thats just good business practice.
You could say its a no brainer and there's no real choice there, but it is still your free will in firing him.

On the other hand you've somebody who seems fine but who a group on the internet have decided they really don't like and claim is an anti-semite with minimal out of context proof...then its their push which is far more behind this than any potential risk of the worker mistreating Jewish customers.
Its still down to you to pull the trigger. But the consequences of not doing so are completely out of your control. You can't just sit down with the worker and get them to apologise and promise not to say any offensive words going forward as you might have had a chance with the first guy. The wheels are in motion with the pressure group.

As you say free will is a continuum and not a black and white thing. But I'd say the more abstracted something gets from the reality on the ground the more free will is removed .

[Razgovory]

If the person had been filmed saying derogatory things about Blacks or Trans or Muslims Josq would be totally fine with them getting fired.  But the anti-Jewish stuff hits to close to home.

[Threviel]

I'm sure it can be framed as not anti-semitic in the same manner that, for example, claiming that women should feel safe on toilets is not anti-trans...

Lots of ink has been spilled on indirect racism, classism, misogyny and whatever, on how, for example, gerrymandering is sometimes racist due to it often disadvantaging african-american voters in the south. It can be defended, because on the surface it's not at all racist, but in practice, well...

The same obviously holds true for anti-semitism as we can see everywhere in this discussion. Sure, it's indirect and can be defended as not anti-semitism, but, well...

Edit: Which is not to say that Jos is an anti-semite, this is not an accusation on him.

[Josquius]

If the person had been filmed saying derogatory things about Blacks or Trans or Muslims Josq would be totally fine with them getting fired.  But the anti-Jewish stuff hits to close to home.

Please don't be an absolute trash level moron.
You're perfectly demonstrating the core problem here. This "Oh, you think Palestinians deserve human rights? Then you must hate Jews!" leap of the logical grand canyon many are prone to doing.

It doesn't matter what the targeted group is. Slipping up and saying dumb shit once shouldn't lead to you being branded as utterly beyond the pale and deserving of anything coming your way.
With intentional repeat offenders spewing conspiracy theories and hate day after day? Have at it. Tell their boss. There's good reason to believe this might actually be in thir employer's best interest anyway.
Somebody said something which out of context you can screenshot to make it look like they hate Mexican people? The people leaping on this kind of thing are absolute scum.

[Razgovory]

If the person had been filmed saying derogatory things about Blacks or Trans or Muslims Josq would be totally fine with them getting fired.  But the anti-Jewish stuff hits to close to home.

Please don't be an absolute trash level moron.
You're perfectly demonstrating the core problem here. This "Oh, you think Palestinians deserve human rights? Then you must hate Jews!" leap of the logical grand canyon many are prone to doing.

It doesn't matter what the targeted group is. Slipping up and saying dumb shit once shouldn't lead to you being branded as utterly beyond the pale and deserving of anything coming your way.
With intentional repeat offenders spewing conspiracy theories and hate day after day? Have at it. Tell their boss. There's good reason to believe this might actually be in thir employer's best interest anyway.
Somebody said something which out of context you can screenshot to make it look like they hate Mexican people? The people leaping on this kind of thing are absolute scum.

Yeah, I hear the same thing with right all the time.  Oh it was out of context, it was only said once!  Leave it for Fox News.  When this happened to people who threatened to call the police on black people in the park, nobody here had a problem.  When this happens to people who defended Hamas, something you said didn't happen in the West, you suddenly have a problem with it.

Remember the hated response to the Metoo movement?  #NotallMen  Well this is #Notallantizionists

[Josquius]

Yeah, I hear the same thing with right all the time.  Oh it was out of context, it was only said once!  Leave it for Fox News.  When this happened to people who threatened to call the police on black people in the park, nobody here had a problem.  When this happens to people who defended Hamas, something you said didn't happen in the West, you suddenly have a problem with it.

Remember the hated response to the Metoo movement?  #NotallMen  Well this is #Notallantizionists

You hear it all the time and you don't believe it is ever true?
Don't you think that maybe the reason people often lie with that excuse is because it lets them try to blend in with those who are genuinely innocent and just slipped up once?
And you don't think maybe there's a difference between a line of text being taken out of context or signing a petition against a war, and a lengthy recorded exchange where someone made quite clear that yes, they disapprove of black people in the park?

Note most of these cases were not people defending Hamas at all.