Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Admiral Yi]

So it's a critique of the US training program on the Abrams?  Or a critique of bad questions asked during the training program? 

[Zoupa]

A little of both I'd say. Mostly of the training not being that relevant to the conditions on the ground.

What I hear from the Ukrainians is that the technical training is good (but slow), as in "this button controls the smoke canister dispensers". That part is fine.

The training on actual operations is not good terribly relevant. I had this mobilized Ukrainian tell me that he trained for about 6 weeks in Germany on infantry tactics by a mix of instructors, mostly Americans but also Canadians, Brits and Dutch. They learned how to clear a house of "insurgents" and small squad covering fire. The last 2 days was about trench fighting. This training is relevant for the "global war on terror" stuff, but not super relevant to the conditions in Ukraine today.

Same kind of story but about tankers with a German instructor. Trainee asks how to deal with minefields. German instructor: "just go around it". The frontline is one, giant, 1000-km long minefield all along the line of contact...

[Zoupa]

Also zero training on drone as the new recon tool or how to integrate drone warfare in the training. To be fair this is a new development, I don't think any army in the world has training incorporated regarding these off the shelf drones (not the massive MQ-9 US Reaper-type drones I mean).

[Threviel]

I would have thought that any training to veteran soldiers would be system specific. Train experienced tankers on the Abrams or the Challenger rather than teach them how to fight with tanks in general. So it might be the case that a US tanker trains very much more practically experienced Ukrainian tankers on the intricacies of the Abrams and how to use it to its advantage.

The same ought to be true for AA troops. Train them on Patriot and its capabilities rather than AA in general, this is not trivial since Patriot presumably behaves very differently to whatever Soviet AA they originally trained on.

Then there's a whole other training program were not experienced troops get basic training in western countries. Sweden for example have "national guard (Hemvärnet, local prostate guerillas)" trainers training Ukrainian troops in the UK.

[chipwich]

So it's a critique of the US training program on the Abrams?  Or a critique of bad questions asked during the training program? 

Presumably Ukraine and Russia have more living tank combat hours than any other country at this point,

[Zanza]

Both sides do seem to lose many tanks and not gain the decisive breakthroughs tanks are made for though.

Could be changed circumstances, e.g. mines and drones, could be other aspects missing, e.g. close air support, but could also be poor usage of tanks due to poor tactics or training.

Having experience with something does not necessarily mean you are good at it.

[Josquius]

It's weird mines are causing such trouble. You'd think that's very old technology, countermeasures should be very advanced.
Go back to say the gulf war and surely there were hefty minefields.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

It's weird mines are causing such trouble. You'd think that's very old technology, countermeasures should be very advanced.
Go back to say the gulf war and surely there were hefty minefields.

it's also the amount of mines employed. The Russian minefields are apparently very, very dense and the Ukrainians don't have the demining equipment available in the amounts needed to break through. Coupled with wat Zanza mentioned about lack of control of the skies resulting in less (or no) CAS for the UAF.

[grumbler]

I'd agree that Ukrainians asking US/UK/German instructors for tips on how to fight the war in Ukraine are asking the wrong guys.  The Ukrainian Army needs to set up its own training program wherein experienced soldiers teach the trainees how to fight under the conditions the Ukrainian Army faces, rather than relying on foreign trainers who haven't any experience in that. 

Seems like something that would not be hard to do and can be done quickly.

[Threviel]

Yeah, but Ukraine is also an incompetent corrupt borderline failed state on par with Russia. So things that should be easy, get own tank production line running, get ammunition factories up and running, get drone factories up and running and so on might be extremely difficult.

[Zoupa]

I'm gonna ignore the Kremlin talking points and point out that huge factories (like tank assembly lines) have been targeted by missiles for 2 years.

Hence why local production focuses on drones for example (you don't need a big space), and why Ukraine asks for more air defense, to perhaps protect/rebuild the bombed out factories.

russia has also targeted training camps in Ukraine. Notoriously they killed over 100 foreign fighters in the first 2 months of the war by just one missile strike to the training grounds, giving cold feet to a lot of them.

But yeah sure, corruption.

[Josquius]

You'd think it'd be win-win for manufacturing elsewhere.
You can do it as openly as you like with no Russian attacks and you get jobs for locals.
Ukraine meanwhile dodges corruption and Russian bombs and doesn't have to tap into its manpower reserves to man the factories.
Yet capitalism. Everyone wants somebody else to pay and put in the effort

[Threviel]

Someone needs to pay yes. It would be a great opportunity to get large scale production of cheap military drones up and running in western states, since that's obviously something we'll need shortly in large numbers. Build the factories, have them supply Ukraine whilst developing next generation drones for western militaries.

Not done, presumably for a good reason. Ukraine can't afford I guess, combined with the usual sluggishness of western politicians.

[Josquius]

Someone needs to pay yes. It would be a great opportunity to get large scale production of cheap military drones up and running in western states, since that's obviously something we'll need shortly in large numbers. Build the factories, have them supply Ukraine whilst developing next generation drones for western militaries.

Not done, presumably for a good reason. Ukraine can't afford I guess, combined with the usual sluggishness of western politicians.

From what I've read the reason is as said the way our economies are setup.
Those making the shells are private companies and they don't want to invest in making bigger production lines without guaranteed contracts going years into the future beyond the immediate Ukraine situation to make it worth their while, and of course trying to milk any government aid that they can whilst they're at it to improve their profits.

Meanwhile in Russia the arms manufacturers are in an incestuous relationship with government where it is a lot more like a strategy game where you press the build factory button.

[Threviel]

Yes. I didn't blame the weapon manufacturers, they are not in it for charity. If they are to produce something they need orders and contracts, the blame for that not happening is on our politicians.

If the money had been ponied up Ukraine would be drowning in military gear right now, but lots of politicians don't want to pony up and the public will is apparently not strong enough to force the issue.