Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Jacob]

On the topic of how to feel about various people fighting for Russia - I've come across a few references to Ukrainians from the occupied areas being forced to fight. Presumably some of them are "Russian minded", some of them are ambivalent and just trying to survive (and unable to avoid conscription), and some of them are being forced into cannon-fodder roles, in spite of wanting Ukrainian independence.

Do any of you have information on how prevalent that is?

[The Brain]

Russian soldiers can turn their weapons on their commanders, form soldiers' soviets, and weaken or topple the regime. Or keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin. It's their choice to make, and they're making it.

[Josquius]

Russian soldiers can turn their weapons on their commanders, form soldiers' soviets, and weaken or topple the regime. Or keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin. It's their choice to make, and they're making it.

because it's just that simple.

[The Brain]

Russian soldiers can turn their weapons on their commanders, form soldiers' soviets, and weaken or topple the regime. Or keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin. It's their choice to make, and they're making it.

because it's just that simple.

Yes. Soldiers have done that or similar stuff throughout history.

[Zoupa]

Russian soldiers can turn their weapons on their commanders, form soldiers' soviets, and weaken or topple the regime. Or keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin. It's their choice to make, and they're making it.

because it's just that simple.

Yes, it is. Why do you think russians have no agency?

Armies have revolted and mutinied for thousands of years. This russian army isn't.

[HVC]

Russian soldiers can turn their weapons on their commanders, form soldiers' soviets, and weaken or topple the regime. Or keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin. It's their choice to make, and they're making it.

because it's just that simple.

Yes. Soldiers have done that or similar stuff throughout history.

Are soldiers turning rather than generals turning and taking soldiers with them that common in history? Actual question, not rhetorical. I can't think of any off the top for my head. I mean I know mutinies happen, over food and comforts, but have they toppled regimes?

[Jacob]

I think the Russian Revolution started with a mutiny?

[Zoupa]

On the topic of how to feel about various people fighting for Russia - I've come across a few references to Ukrainians from the occupied areas being forced to fight. Presumably some of them are "Russian minded", some of them are ambivalent and just trying to survive (and unable to avoid conscription), and some of them are being forced into cannon-fodder roles, in spite of wanting Ukrainian independence.

Do any of you have information on how prevalent that is?

In the territories of the DNR/LNR (but not Crimea), pretty much every male 18-60 has been conscripted. Most of them have been wiped out in Mariupol, Kherson and Bakhmut.

[Admiral Yi]

Are soldiers turning rather than generals turning and taking soldiers with them that common in history? Actual question, not rhetorical. I can't think of any off the top for my head. I mean I know mutinies happen, over food and comforts, but have they toppled regimes?

Russian Revolution, French mutiny in 1917, British Spithead mutiny in 17XX.

[HVC]

Are soldiers turning rather than generals turning and taking soldiers with them that common in history? Actual question, not rhetorical. I can't think of any off the top for my head. I mean I know mutinies happen, over food and comforts, but have they toppled regimes?

Russian Revolution, French mutiny in 1917, British Spithead mutiny in 17XX.

Don't know about the other two, but the Russian revolution wasn't soldier lead.

[HVC]

I think the Russian Revolution started with a mutiny?

That's two, so maybe my understanding of the revolution is faulty. I'll accept that.

[Admiral Yi]

That's two, so maybe my understanding of the revolution is faulty. I'll accept that.

Bread riots in the cities + soldiers refusing to fight + Lenin.

[Josquius]

Russian soldiers can turn their weapons on their commanders, form soldiers' soviets, and weaken or topple the regime. Or keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin. It's their choice to make, and they're making it.

because it's just that simple.

Yes. Soldiers have done that or similar stuff throughout history.

History is also full of examples of random people from humble circumstances rising to the upper echelons of power.
That doesn't mean any random person can just decide to do this on a whim.
The situation is far more complicated than "just rebel".

The meat grinder is operating fast. Lots of stories of people going from civilian on the streets of some far flung Russian province to the front lines in less than a month. The life expectancy for Russians on the front line is not high.
Historic examples of succesful soldier revolts had time to brew and ferment. Soldiers were able to connect with each other and share their grievances and build up a picture of the situation. They organised and then went into action against thinking they had a chance.
The Russian leaders know mutinies are a potential problem. The fog of war is thick but again lots of hints of small scale mutinities, barrier troops, etc... They're seizing phones from their soldiers and deliberately keeping them isolated from each other and stopping them from organising.

So you're a random know nothing peasant thrown onto the front line. Survival is your primary priority. And with no obvious path to that clear you'll tend to follow the orders of the guys pointing a machine gun at your face even if it means running into a field full of dead conscripts to have artillery rain down on your head. It's just human psychology.
99% likely die in 10 minutes and at least they won't go after your family vs die right now for certain. There's some sort of pension on offer for your mother which you hope she'll get.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

On the topic of how to feel about various people fighting for Russia - I've come across a few references to Ukrainians from the occupied areas being forced to fight. Presumably some of them are "Russian minded", some of them are ambivalent and just trying to survive (and unable to avoid conscription), and some of them are being forced into cannon-fodder roles, in spite of wanting Ukrainian independence.

Do any of you have information on how prevalent that is?

not uncommon I'm guessing since there's pretty serious indications that the Muscovites are withholding food, energy and medical care from the occupied population in order to force them to give up their Ukranian passports.

[The Brain]

Russian soldiers can turn their weapons on their commanders, form soldiers' soviets, and weaken or topple the regime. Or keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin. It's their choice to make, and they're making it.

because it's just that simple.

Yes. Soldiers have done that or similar stuff throughout history.

History is also full of examples of random people from humble circumstances rising to the upper echelons of power.
That doesn't mean any random person can just decide to do this on a whim.
The situation is far more complicated than "just rebel".

The meat grinder is operating fast. Lots of stories of people going from civilian on the streets of some far flung Russian province to the front lines in less than a month. The life expectancy for Russians on the front line is not high.
Historic examples of succesful soldier revolts had time to brew and ferment. Soldiers were able to connect with each other and share their grievances and build up a picture of the situation. They organised and then went into action against thinking they had a chance.
The Russian leaders know mutinies are a potential problem. The fog of war is thick but again lots of hints of small scale mutinities, barrier troops, etc... They're seizing phones from their soldiers and deliberately keeping them isolated from each other and stopping them from organising.

So you're a random know nothing peasant thrown onto the front line. Survival is your primary priority. And with no obvious path to that clear you'll tend to follow the orders of the guys pointing a machine gun at your face even if it means running into a field full of dead conscripts to have artillery rain down on your head. It's just human psychology.
99% likely die in 10 minutes and at least they won't go after your family vs die right now for certain. There's some sort of pension on offer for your mother which you hope she'll get.

I expect Russian soldiers to keep killing Ukrainians and dying for Putin.