Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Only one side of cunts went into the villages of the other cunts with assault rifles and massacred 1400 civilians made videos of it and celebrated themselves, though. The other cunts might be too unwilling to die themselves in hand-to-hand combat on the first cunts' turf instead of causing the first cunts' civilians to die in bombings, but the two are not exactly the same levels of crime no matter what the far-left tribe is saying.

They're not the same no. They're quite different.
I don't see where one brutal and horrible act by a small number of Palestinians somehow nullifies decades of generally far more low key oppression by Israel.

I'm sure that out of 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust, at least one was a jerk.  Why is there such a reluctance to admit that both sides had cunts in that incident?

I'm not sure who you are saying are the Jews in this analogy. I guess Israel?.. As it does work better the other way.

[Threviel]

Heh? I do think we're all very aware of the shortcomings of Israel. But I also do think that most of us can differentiate the actions of the state of Israel with the actions of the inhabitants of the Israel.

Edit: And with that I mean, the state of Gaza is a horrible murderous dictatorship and the state of Israel is not.

[Tamas]

I don't see where one brutal and horrible act by a small number of Palestinians somehow nullifies decades of generally far more low key oppression by Israel.

Well, Hamas was founded in 1987 apparently. Seeing how they mean their stated goal of ending Israel, I'd say the terror attack at the very least retrospectively nullifies any oppression aimed at containing Hamas since 1987.

[Josquius]

I don't see where one brutal and horrible act by a small number of Palestinians somehow nullifies decades of generally far more low key oppression by Israel.

Well, Hamas was founded in 1987 apparently. Seeing how they mean their stated goal of ending Israel, I'd say the terror attack at the very least retrospectively nullifies any oppression aimed at containing Hamas since 1987.

.

Except nobody supports Hamas here. At all.
Supporting the Palestinians is not the same as supporting Hamas.

Also worth noting you can say all the horrid genocidal shit you want... The numbers clearly show Palestine has been the losing side this past 50 + years.

[Grey Fox]

What about Gazaans, are they Hamas or Palestinians in this scenario?


Yes, they lost all the wars and Palestine was abandoned by all it's allies.

[Josquius]

What about Gazaans, are they Hamas or Palestinians in this scenario?


Yes, they lost all the wars and Palestine was abandoned by all it's allies.

Mostly not part of Hamas considering literally half of them are kids.

[Tamas]

I don't see where one brutal and horrible act by a small number of Palestinians somehow nullifies decades of generally far more low key oppression by Israel.

Well, Hamas was founded in 1987 apparently. Seeing how they mean their stated goal of ending Israel, I'd say the terror attack at the very least retrospectively nullifies any oppression aimed at containing Hamas since 1987.

.

Except nobody supports Hamas here. At all.
Supporting the Palestinians is not the same as supporting Hamas.

Also worth noting you can say all the horrid genocidal shit you want... The numbers clearly show Palestine has been the losing side this past 50 + years.

I was not saying you or anybody else support Hamas on this forum. You asked if the October 7 attack nullifies some of the oppressive shit Israel did. I said yes to that.

Your last point I am not getting. Losing a war or seven doesn't make you the good guy.

[Josquius]

I don't see where one brutal and horrible act by a small number of Palestinians somehow nullifies decades of generally far more low key oppression by Israel.

Well, Hamas was founded in 1987 apparently. Seeing how they mean their stated goal of ending Israel, I'd say the terror attack at the very least retrospectively nullifies any oppression aimed at containing Hamas since 1987.

.

Except nobody supports Hamas here. At all.
Supporting the Palestinians is not the same as supporting Hamas.

Also worth noting you can say all the horrid genocidal shit you want... The numbers clearly show Palestine has been the losing side this past 50 + years.

I was not saying you or anybody else support Hamas on this forum. You asked if the October 7 attack nullifies some of the oppressive shit Israel did. I said yes to that.

Your last point I am not getting. Losing a war or seven doesn't make you the good guy.

My point is Hamas are like an angry old man shouting at clouds. This recent attack, the worst in Israel's history, even as horrible as it was on a human level, was no serious threat to the survival of Israel- the goal of Hamas being to eliminate this.

Israel might not be screaming death to the muslims (well, most of them) but with the sheer power imbalance that they enjoy and their rubbish handling of the situation over the past few decades, they've caused immense harm to Palestinians.

An eye for an eye makes the world blind. I don't think Israel has gained forgiveness for some of its shit because Hamas was able to hit back and murder some Israelis.

[Tamas]

So you declare the death of Israelis insignificant in the larger picture of things, and I do the same for Palestinians. I guess that's the same position in a way, we are just on different sides of a tribal existential conflict. Except my side is a civilised democratic country with some shitty practices and a shift toward the far-right while staying democratic and fighting early autocratic tendencies within its own politics. Your side is a terrorist state.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The key point is quite simple.

Hamas rule means Gaza will remain fully blockaded. Gazans will continue to suffer extremely high rates of poverty, food insecurity, lack of even very basic political rights (even some enjoyed by Palestinians in the West Bank--who are certainly fairly limited in political rights to begin with.) Hamas rule means at some point in the future, there will be another attack, and another large war--with many thousands of Gazans dead.

The calls for cease fire are saying "we like that, and want it to continue." That may not be the intent of people calling for a cease fire--but I suspect many people calling for a cease fire have deficient capacities of logic and are minimally informed about the situation. They just float around in youth lefty circles and know that "Israel colonials and bad" and "Palestine good." They miss the fairly obvious fact that Gazan Palestinians are largely captive hostages of a brutal, evil terrorist group. Perfectly identical to the Iraqis who were captives of ISIS--and who could only be freed with a military campaign that left many tens of thousands dead (around 40,000 civilians in the Battle of Mosul alone--and note that was certainly not the only city ISIS had to be driven out of.)

There is no future for Gazans as long as Hamas remains in charge, and the people advocating a one sided cease fire that leaves Hamas in power are dooming future generations of Gazans to a repeat of this very situation.

[Barrister]

My point is Hamas are like an angry old man shouting at clouds. This recent attack, the worst in Israel's history, even as horrible as it was on a human level, was no serious threat to the survival of Israel- the goal of Hamas being to eliminate this.

Israel might not be screaming death to the muslims (well, most of them) but with the sheer power imbalance that they enjoy and their rubbish handling of the situation over the past few decades, they've caused immense harm to Palestinians.

An eye for an eye makes the world blind. I don't think Israel has gained forgiveness for some of its shit because Hamas was able to hit back and murder some Israelis.

You've really outdone yourself in terrible analogies Jos.

Israel is not engaging in an "eye for an eye" here.  They're not going "well we'll just murder 1400 Gazans and call it even".  They are attempting to entirely root out Hamas, a terrorist organization, from Gaza while minimizing casualties (but accepting there may be some).

[grumbler]

OvB is gonna be pissed off at Netanyahu for committing blood libel at Israel.
Grumbler is going to be angry too.
Yi and Tamas are gonna be so mad.

I'm wondering if you have the self-awareness to understand how badly your stupid takes, telling other people what they will think, is undermining any credibility you have left on this topic.

[Josquius]

So you declare the death of Israelis insignificant in the larger picture of things, and I do the same for Palestinians. I guess that's the same position in a way, we are just on different sides of a tribal existential conflict. Except my side is a civilised democratic country with some shitty practices and a shift toward the far-right while staying democratic and fighting early autocratic tendencies within its own politics. Your side is a terrorist state.

No. My side is the Palestinian people. A people whose fundamental survival is actively under threat. A people whose children are being killed in large numbers on an ongoing basis. Who are steadily having their land taken from them and being pushed into an ever smaller area whilst their plummeting living standards leads to an increased birth rate. Not to mention a large chunk of them being under the rule of a group of religious terrorists.
Hamas are one of the shitty side effects of the Palestinian situation, not the instigators of it.

[Barrister]

So you declare the death of Israelis insignificant in the larger picture of things, and I do the same for Palestinians. I guess that's the same position in a way, we are just on different sides of a tribal existential conflict. Except my side is a civilised democratic country with some shitty practices and a shift toward the far-right while staying democratic and fighting early autocratic tendencies within its own politics. Your side is a terrorist state.

No. My side is the Palestinian people. A people whose fundamental survival is actively under threat. A people whose children are being killed in large numbers on an ongoing basis. Who are steadily having their land taken from them and being pushed into an ever smaller area whilst their plummeting living standards leads to an increased birth rate. Not to mention a large chunk of them being under the rule of a group of religious terrorists.
Hamas are one of the shitty side effects of the Palestinian situation, not the instigators of it.

I feel like this take removes any agency from Palestinian people, either Hamas or the population at large.

[OttoVonBismarck]

So you declare the death of Israelis insignificant in the larger picture of things, and I do the same for Palestinians. I guess that's the same position in a way, we are just on different sides of a tribal existential conflict. Except my side is a civilised democratic country with some shitty practices and a shift toward the far-right while staying democratic and fighting early autocratic tendencies within its own politics. Your side is a terrorist state.

No. My side is the Palestinian people. A people whose fundamental survival is actively under threat. A people whose children are being killed in large numbers on an ongoing basis. Who are steadily having their land taken from them and being pushed into an ever smaller area whilst their plummeting living standards leads to an increased birth rate. Not to mention a large chunk of them being under the rule of a group of religious terrorists.
Hamas are one of the shitty side effects of the Palestinian situation, not the instigators of it.

Your side is the Palestinian people, so your position is they should remain enslaved to Hamas?