Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Tamas]

And the two numbers compared are coming from opposite sources which makes it interesting for me: the IAF said 8000 bombs (they have an interest in under reporting this number) whil the 7000 deaths come from Hamas (they have an interest in over reporting this number).

Yes.  the IAF bombs are so precise that each bombs only kill one person at a time. They don't even need to use snipers anymore, they just use their bombs.

Here, one bomb, one kill.

My point which I foolishly thought would be obvious is that unless Hamas cooked their numbers to make the IAF look better, the numbers don't seem to indicate a particular focus on targetting civilians.

[Tamas]

Meanwhile latest London protest accused Starmer and the BBC with genocide, so we are nearly building toward some sort of a violence.

I am sure Bibi is glued to the BBC to learn whether Starmer forbids him to continue, but still.

[Admiral Yi]

First time I've woken up since the war began and there has not been a single new post.  Are we talked out?

[DGuller]

First time I've woken up since the war began and there has not been a single new post.  Are we talked out?

I think we've all come to an agreement, and there is no more need to discuss anything.

[Tamas]

First time I've woken up since the war began and there has not been a single new post.  Are we talked out?

I think we've all come to an agreement, and there is no more need to discuss anything.

If us, unattached people with no material stake or threat in this can so easily set aside our differences, I wonder why this conflict has taken so many decades on the ground.

[Admiral Yi]

Veep: thought about it, and while I still dispute whether allied strategic bombing was intended to kill as many civilians as possible, I also think it's irrelevant to the overall point.  Israel *could* still be trying to "just" make them all flee to Egypt so it would still be a nefarious act.

[viper37]

And the two numbers compared are coming from opposite sources which makes it interesting for me: the IAF said 8000 bombs (they have an interest in under reporting this number) whil the 7000 deaths come from Hamas (they have an interest in over reporting this number).

Yes.  the IAF bombs are so precise that each bombs only kill one person at a time. They don't even need to use snipers anymore, they just use their bombs.

Here, one bomb, one kill.

My point which I foolishly thought would be obvious is that unless Hamas cooked their numbers to make the IAF look better, the numbers don't seem to indicate a particular focus on targetting civilians.

They're also destroying the infrastructure to create a refugee problem.

[viper37]

But it's not what they do.

The parameters are this way:
1 mid value target (local leader).
50 civilians.
Shoot.

Like the bombing in the refugee camp/city.

They shot an ambulance recently.  They said there were terrorists onboard, and munitions hiding under children.

So...  They have intel knowing precisely were some ammunition is hidden, apparently under an injured child.  Let's assume it is true.  The best method they found to deal with it was to lauch a missile toward the ambulance to kill the kid?

Do you think it is an efficient method of solving the problem for the long term?

Assume the Israeli government was telling the truth.  There were 3 or 4 terrorists inside the ambulance hiding with a injured child and ammunition/weapons that we did not see under a gurney.

So, they killed four low-level combattants and one kid.

Now, will that kid's family blame Hamas or Israel for the death or their little angel?

I'm confused what you want me to respond to, 1 wounded kid and 3 or 4 fighters in an ambulance or 1 fighter and 50 mixed civilians.

I'm also confused as to whether you are presenting the 50 +1 scenario as fact or hypothetical.

And yes, I think a hellfire is an excellent way of taking out an ambulance with 1 kid and 3 or 4 fighters, if you want to take it out.

You said the collateral damage had to weighed in vs the importance of the target.

Take for example the raid to eliminate Ben Laden.

Civilians were killed.  But we can both agree this was an extremely important target.

There were very limited non combatant targets killed so that one high value targets and his supporting staff were eliminated.

In the case of Israel, it's 50 non combatants killed to eliminate one low level threat, a mid-tier local Hamas chief.

Or 3 or 4 Hamas gunmen presumably hiding in an ambulance.  Yet, no weapons are seen in the aftermath of the explosion.  Either the Hamas was very quick in removing all traces of it, or Israel was lying.  But let's presume Israel was not lying.

Was it worth it, from a purely military objective?  You kill 3 or 4 military combatants and create a hundred new terrorists willing to fight you to the death.  I'm not sure it's worth it.

[Admiral Yi]

In the case of Israel, it's 50 non combatants killed to eliminate one low level threat, a mid-tier local Hamas chief.

If you want me to give you my judgement on a real world case, please link me to something that describes more fully what happened.

Or 3 or 4 Hamas gunmen presumably hiding in an ambulance.  Yet, no weapons are seen in the aftermath of the explosion.  Either the Hamas was very quick in removing all traces of it, or Israel was lying.  But let's presume Israel was not lying.

Was it worth it, from a purely military objective?  You kill 3 or 4 military combatants and create a hundred new terrorists willing to fight you to the death.  I'm not sure it's worth it.

That's something you have to take up with the Israelis.  I don't feel qualified to give them a lecture on the cost/benefit of killing terrorists vs. creating new ones.

I feel qualified to give them, and Hamas, a lecture (or a sermon) on proportionality.  I.e. an eye for an eye.  If I see Israel taking two eyes for the one they lost I will object.

[viper37]

Dresden had over 500 000 people.  The bombing killed 25 000 people.
The goal was to inflict terror, to create a refugee problem as Sheilb pointed out in his text.  Destroy the industry, kill the workers, force people to flee their homes because they fear other bombings.

It's an interesting possibility, one I had not considered.  Do you have other evidence to support the claim the allies killed fewer at Dresden than they were capable of?  Were bombers ordered not to fly?  Are there planning documents that say "we want to kill 25K and no more?"

4 big raids were made, followed by 3 smaller ones.  If the goal had been to kill has many civilians as possible, they would have kept at it and pillared the industrial center to achieve maximum economic disruption.  

They also wanted to the Russians to see what they could do.

The goals were two fold: create a refugee problem for the Germans (they already had up to 200 000 refugees arriving thee) and showing the Soviets they would be outclassed if they had any funny ideas about the West.

[viper37]

In the case of Israel, it's 50 non combatants killed to eliminate one low level threat, a mid-tier local Hamas chief.

If you want me to give you my judgement on a real world case, please link me to something that describes more fully what happened.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/5/israel-hamas-war-list-of-key-events-day-30


Israel Minister Amichai Eliyahu suspended for proposing nuclear bomb in Gaza

The fallout would likely reach Israel...
Obviously, it was a metaphore. But it's indiciative of what I said before: Israel does not want the Palestinians to be in Gaza anymore. 

[Admiral Yi]

Do you have a link that mentions one low level threat, a mid tier local Hamas chief?

[Admiral Yi]

Don't see him mentioned here

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/5/israel-bombs-al-maghazi-refugee-camp-killing-dozens-gaza-officials-say

or here

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67326895

[Iormlund]

Footage released by the IDF of (allegedly) a Hamas tunnel entrance by a hospital.

https://twitter.com/Heroiam_Slava/status/1721181063290982704

[viper37]

Footage released by the IDF of (allegedly) a Hamas tunnel entrance by a hospital.

https://twitter.com/Heroiam_Slava/status/1721181063290982704

Quatari money?  Didn't we address this point before? At the very beginning of the conflict?