Israel-Hamas War 2023

[grumbler]

If Israel was willing to let Palestinian lives in Israel as citizens of Israel with equal rights, we would not be having this discussion.

Since about 20% of Israel's population consists of these people you do not believe exist, maybe you shouldn't be having this conversation.

[viper37]

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

They're not that classified.  They tell Palestinians to evacuate toward a specific area, and then they proceed to bomb said area as well as the rest.

Didn't see any Israeli targeting data in the referenced article.  Maybe you can try again with a relevant source this time?

Israeli missiles have already destroyed around five percent of all buildings in Gaza, including in areas where Palestinians sought shelter after heeding Israeli calls to evacuate their homes.


Other link
DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli warplanes struck targets across Gaza on Monday, including in areas where Palestinian civilians have been told to seek refuge, after another small aid shipment was allowed into the besieged Hamas-ruled territory.


Israeli strike in southern Gaza
More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in air strikes in southern Gaza, officials say, as the Israeli military continues to target the area despite ordering civilians to shelter there.
Most of the dead reportedly fled their homes in the north ahead of what is expected to be a major ground offensive against the militant group Hamas.
The military said it struck a series of Hamas targets in the south.

Didn't the IDF told the people of Gaza to evacuate south?  Why are they bombing the southern portion of the strip if they told them to evacuate south, then?

As for the warnings, here's a testimony from an ABC crew:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJwqTAV-f_o

Seems the warning are pretty short.  It's as if they don't want people to take shelter.

[viper37]

If Israel was willing to let Palestinian lives in Israel as citizens of Israel with equal rights, we would not be having this discussion.

Since about 20% of Israel's population consists of these people you do not believe exist, maybe you shouldn't be having this conversation.

So you deny that the right of return is a contentious issue in Israel?

[grumbler]

Israeli missiles have already destroyed around five percent of all buildings in Gaza, including in areas where Palestinians sought shelter after heeding Israeli calls to evacuate their homes.


Other link
DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli warplanes struck targets across Gaza on Monday, including in areas where Palestinian civilians have been told to seek refuge, after another small aid shipment was allowed into the besieged Hamas-ruled territory.


Israeli strike in southern Gaza
More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in air strikes in southern Gaza, officials say, as the Israeli military continues to target the area despite ordering civilians to shelter there.
Most of the dead reportedly fled their homes in the north ahead of what is expected to be a major ground offensive against the militant group Hamas.
The military said it struck a series of Hamas targets in the south.

Didn't the IDF told the people of Gaza to evacuate south?  Why are they bombing the southern portion of the strip if they told them to evacuate south, then?

As for the warnings, here's a testimony from an ABC crew:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJwqTAV-f_o

Seems the warning are pretty short.  It's as if they don't want people to take shelter.

I'm still not seeing any Israeli targeting data.  Is it possible that you do not know what targeting is, in this context?

Nowhere did Israel say that it would not bomb in the southern part of Gaza.  That would be moronic.  They did say that the Gazans would be safe from the Israeli ground offensive there.

[viper37]

Israeli missiles have already destroyed around five percent of all buildings in Gaza, including in areas where Palestinians sought shelter after heeding Israeli calls to evacuate their homes.


Other link
DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli warplanes struck targets across Gaza on Monday, including in areas where Palestinian civilians have been told to seek refuge, after another small aid shipment was allowed into the besieged Hamas-ruled territory.


Israeli strike in southern Gaza
More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in air strikes in southern Gaza, officials say, as the Israeli military continues to target the area despite ordering civilians to shelter there.
Most of the dead reportedly fled their homes in the north ahead of what is expected to be a major ground offensive against the militant group Hamas.
The military said it struck a series of Hamas targets in the south.

Didn't the IDF told the people of Gaza to evacuate south?  Why are they bombing the southern portion of the strip if they told them to evacuate south, then?

As for the warnings, here's a testimony from an ABC crew:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJwqTAV-f_o

Seems the warning are pretty short.  It's as if they don't want people to take shelter.

I'm still not seeing any Israeli targeting data.  Is it possible that you do not know what targeting is, in this context?

Nowhere did Israel say that it would not bomb in the southern part of Gaza.  That would be moronic.  They did say that the Gazans would be safe from the Israeli ground offensive there.

Come on, you know as well as I do that you won't get precise targeting data.  You're playing dumb as always.

Israel told Gazans to evacuate to the south 24h prior to its bombing campaign. Then it started bombing in the south.  What's the point?
Why is Israel attacking South Gaza after telling people to go there?

It's like they don't care about civilian casualties at all.

So on one side, we have the pro-Israelis who insists they're all fair targets.  Every single target so far was a military target because the IDF has said so.  Even when they said they don't make a distinction between civilians and Hamas combatants.

On the other, those who raise doubts.

I'm gonna keep my skepticism.  Israel want these people out of Gaza and they'll do what they can to get them out of there, willingly or not, alive or not, after they've raze as much as they can so they have nowhere to return.

[Valmy]

Germany was left with a country for its people.  There were no talks of relocating Germans elsewhere, or splitting the country in zones where there would be British colonies, American colonies, Russian colonies, French colonies, etc where Germans could not live.

Um the Germans were subjected to one of the largest ethnic cleansings in history.

[Zoupa]

Both sides have been dehumanizing each other for decades. IMO, it hasn't "taken" into as many Israelis as Palestinians (where it seems to have reached near universal consensus).

The attacks on 07Oct2023 are proof of that dehumanization on a shocking scale. The IDF response is also a proof of that. I really wonder what's their "acceptable civilian casualties" prior to approving a strike.

[Razgovory]

Both sides have been dehumanizing each other for decades. IMO, it hasn't "taken" into as many Israelis as Palestinians (where it seems to have reached near universal consensus).

The attacks on 07Oct2023 are proof of that dehumanization on a shocking scale. The IDF response is also a proof of that. I really wonder what's their "acceptable civilian casualties" prior to approving a strike.

Probably better than Dresden.

[viper37]

Germany was left with a country for its people.  There were no talks of relocating Germans elsewhere, or splitting the country in zones where there would be British colonies, American colonies, Russian colonies, French colonies, etc where Germans could not live.

Um the Germans were subjected to one of the largest ethnic cleansings in history.

Only Russia and in Russian territories.  Afaik, not in Germany proper.  I'm not aware of mass deportation from Berlin or Lepzig.

It's like telling me the Russians are cleansing Ukraine so it's ok for Israel to cleanse Palestine...  C'mon,  Russia has never been an example to follow, even in Tsarist times.  That's an argument for Raz.

[viper37]

Both sides have been dehumanizing each other for decades. IMO, it hasn't "taken" into as many Israelis as Palestinians (where it seems to have reached near universal consensus).

The attacks on 07Oct2023 are proof of that dehumanization on a shocking scale. The IDF response is also a proof of that. I really wonder what's their "acceptable civilian casualties" prior to approving a strike.

Probably better than Dresden.

Good argument.  Russia has not reach the level of Dresden either, so it's all good.

[Razgovory]

Germany was left with a country for its people.  There were no talks of relocating Germans elsewhere, or splitting the country in zones where there would be British colonies, American colonies, Russian colonies, French colonies, etc where Germans could not live.

Um the Germans were subjected to one of the largest ethnic cleansings in history.

Only Russia and in Russian territories.  Afaik, not in Germany proper.  I'm not aware of mass deportation from Berlin or Lepzig.

It's like telling me the Russians are cleansing Ukraine so it's ok for Israel to cleanse Palestine...  C'mon,  Russia has never been an example to follow, even in Tsarist times.  That's an argument for Raz.

[grumbler]

Come on, you know as well as I do that you won't get precise targeting data.  You're playing dumb as always.

And yet you claimed that you did know their targeting data because you stated as a fact that "They sure ain't targeting only Hamas sites though."  I don't think that you are playing dumb here.

Israel told Gazans to evacuate to the south 24h prior to its bombing campaign. Then it started bombing in the south.  What's the point?
Why is Israel attacking South Gaza after telling people to go there?

It's like they don't care about civilian casualties at all.

It seems to you that "they don't care about civilian casualties at all.  Your emotional take doesn't make it fact, it just makes it your emotional take.

So on one side, we have the pro-Israelis who insists they're all fair targets.  Every single target so far was a military target because the IDF has said so.  Even when they said they don't make a distinction between civilians and Hamas combatants.

On the one side, you have those who insist that they know that the Israelis are attacking targets unconnected to Hamas, and then launch into strawman arguments claiming that others (which actually amount to zero people here) are the ones insisting on things.

And you know goddam well that the Israelis did NOT say that "they don't make a distinction between civilians and Hamas combatants."  That statement was made by a hack pretending to be a reporter and deliberately trying to fool people with poor reading skills into believing that it was the Israelis saying it.  I've pointed this out before.

On the other, those who raise doubts.

I'm gonna keep my skepticism.  Israel want these people out of Gaza and they'll do what they can to get them out of there, willingly or not, alive or not, after they've raze as much as they can so they have nowhere to return.

You don't raise doubts and express skepticism.  You announce as fact things that are not true and other things that you would not possibly know, and then try to wrap yourself in the flag of "raising doubts."  There are still a lot of unknowns here, and the rush to judgement of people like you and Jos don't add signal, just noise.

[grumbler]

Both sides have been dehumanizing each other for decades. IMO, it hasn't "taken" into as many Israelis as Palestinians (where it seems to have reached near universal consensus).

The attacks on 07Oct2023 are proof of that dehumanization on a shocking scale. The IDF response is also a proof of that. I really wonder what's their "acceptable civilian casualties" prior to approving a strike.

I agree with the premise, and would also like some clarity on their calculus of "acceptable collateral damage."  I'd also like to believe that the IDF has good trigger discipline in Gaza, but the mutual dehumanization makes me concerned that IDF discipline might not be what it should be.

[grumbler]

Um the Germans were subjected to one of the largest ethnic cleansings in history.

Only Russia and in Russian territories.  Afaik, not in Germany proper.  I'm not aware of mass deportation from Berlin or Lepzig.

    Tel me that you are joking.

[DGuller]

He did say he was not aware, what else do you want from him?  I mean, other than the accurate and complete knowledge of history?