Israel-Hamas War 2023

[The Minsky Moment]

I'm also curious where all the pro-Uighur demonstators are?  Where are the vigilantes harassing incoming flights from Beijing? The Uighur population in Xinjiang is more than twice the Palestinian population and the brutality of the oppression would embarrass the most hard right Israeli hardline.  Yet the only ones who seem to be really outraged about it are conservative China hawks.

[crazy canuck]

I'm also curious where all the pro-Uighur demonstators are?  Where are the vigilantes harassing incoming flights from Beijing? The Uighur population in Xinjiang is more than twice the Palestinian population and the brutality of the oppression would embarrass the most hard right Israeli hardline.  Yet the only ones who seem to be really outraged about it are conservative China hawks.

Presumably Putin's comments about Jews has some impact within Russia.

As for protests against China's treatment of the Uigar, it's a common thing here and elsewhere.

Seems an odd what about argument to make

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yeah, I mean if you want to make the argument a lot of anti-Israeli lefties are antisemitic and that is a major driving force, there is a ton of evidence to support it.

My take it a lot of these lefty progs (especially younger ones) aren't actually antisemites, but I think antisemitism is a problem in that circle. There are lefties like Corbyn who I think are genuine antisemites, and I think lefties "of a certain age" have a greater than average chance of being antisemitic, and that has set the tone of many discussion points etc in that broader political community.

It should be well noted that the "Arab street" is just a shade less antisemitic than Adolf Hitler, so the protesters across the Arab world are basically as bigoted as it gets. It looks like a significant number of Turks are antisemitic as well.

[Tamas]

I'm also curious where all the pro-Uighur demonstators are?  Where are the vigilantes harassing incoming flights from Beijing? The Uighur population in Xinjiang is more than twice the Palestinian population and the brutality of the oppression would embarrass the most hard right Israeli hardline.  Yet the only ones who seem to be really outraged about it are conservative China hawks.

Presumably Putin's comments about Jews has some impact within Russia.

As for protests against China's treatment of the Uigar, it's a common thing here and elsewhere.

Seems an odd what about argument to make

It's not an odd one. We do not have 100k enthusiastic people in London marching for the Uighurs. We definitely have not seen attempted lynching of Chinese people in Dagestan over the Uighurs.

This is not an excuse for Israel to commit war crimes but you have to admit, the "who is doing it" (hint: the Jews) carries FAR more weight with these "concerned" people than the "what is being done" and "to whom".

[Valmy]

Also striking was the video of a crowd in Netanya chanting "death to Arabs" (an old song for Israel's extremist police minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir) at a student dorm which a number of Arab Israelis had barricaded themselves inside - it took a long time for the police to disperse the crowds.

I hate to be that guy but man I loath so many elements on both sides so much. This isn't some thing where I am trying to find some enlightened centrist position here. I just loath Netanyahu and his band of nationalist right wing fucks so much. Likewise so many of the Palestinians and their supporters make little effort to conceal the fact that they just want to destroy the Jews.

It's frustrating because we have to pretend there is some room for negotiation and a peaceful settlement here but there is just such a critical mass of insane assholes on both sides that it just seems performative. It just seems like there is going to either be an end with terror or terror without end and a large percentage of the participants seem ok with that, or at least vastly prefer it to any settlement.

And all these people claiming that this is about "Decolonization" or "oppressed people seeking justice" seem full of shit. I mean are there oppressed people there seeking justice? Yes. But that isn't what this conflict is about. It is about ethnic and religious war and conflict with fanatical nutballs stirring the pot and intentionally and systematically removing there ever being hope for a peaceful settlment. They only use these oppressed people seeking justice as propaganda tools to achieve their ends and only a fool can't see it. And likewise that whole thing about how Israel is some democratic enlightened state with values we here in the west value (or at least attempt to live up to...). I mean sure are there people in Israel that value those things? Yes. But no state with those values would have people in power like they have or do the sorts of things they do.

It just sucks. I hate that my country is involved and I struggle with contempt at people who pretend like one of these groups of dicks has some noble cause or intention. There are lots of good people over there and it upsets me that they are basically just grist for the mills of nationalist garbage. Any Palestinian or Israeli who has perservered this far, through all this nonsense, earnestly and tirelessly working for peace and justice has my deep respect. They are a better person than this conflict deserves. Practically superhuman.

Sorry. That little tidbit just triggered me.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Again--it isn't both sides. Most of the right wing Israelis are significantly less vile than the Palestinians, that is simply fact.

Ben-Gvr and Smotrich and the groups they represent are about as bad as the Palestinians. But it ignores a lot to suggest that is all of Israel, it isn't. No more than the 20% of American Republicans who are Nazis represent all of America and make us as bad Russia or China.

The "midpoint" position of Israel is not "genocide all the Arabs." Even some of the most far right Israelis don't actually go that far.

[DGuller]

Lots of people around me go around saying that both sides in the conflict is equally bad. That's, in my mind, to implicitly take sides for Hamas, since they are not equally bad. Especially since the same people often advocate for immediate cease-fire.

So by saying that they don't pick a side whilst at the same time spreading Hamas propaganda they are picking a side.

An observation on people around me and not meant as opposition to Brainy.

I agree, both-siders are always siding with the most guilty side, by definition.  What's even more repugnant is that both-siders do that because they think it makes them look wise and intelligent, and maybe to stupid people it does.  Smart people understand that both-sidism just removes the penalty for the worse side to continue doing things that make it the worst side.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Instead of both sides-ism the more logical approach is to recognize Hamas is a monstrous terror group that explicitly wants there to never be a peace, Israel is a democracy that has shitty politicians in charge, and has made a lot of mistakes, but does not round up thousands of civilians and massacre them for sport or block its own people from being able to speak freely about the topic or steal food and water from its own civilians or use its own civilians as human shields / hostages.

This actually shouldn't be that hard. The U.S. for example had many missteps in the GWOT and some outright bad behaviors, but there is no equivalency between the U.S. and al-Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS et al.

It isn't hard to recognize even the "better side" has problems, without reducing it to "both sides bad" equivalency.

[Threviel]

Ohhh, you guys shouldn't say Palestinians, some useful idiot is going to come around and say that the Palestinians is not a homogenous block and that you can't treat them as that whilst at the same time ignoring your point entirely.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Ohhh, you guys shouldn't say Palestinians, some useful idiot is going to come around and say that the Palestinians is not a homogenous block and that you can't treat them as that whilst at the same time ignoring your point entirely.

I chose the term intentionally--due to the large scale activism within both Gaza and WB that show broad support for Hamas behavior. It may not be literally 100% of Palestinians, but there is zero evidence that Hamas terrorism enjoys anything less than significantly robust support among Palestinians and the Arab street.

Israel's worst behaviors--for example settler violence, are often illegal under Israeli law. Even in the past few months with the far right coalition settlers have been stopped from doing illegal things and a few even arrested. Among Israeli society, something like 9% of the population voted for the most extremist shit bag parties like that, Netanyahu's coalition did not win even a majority of the vote. Natanyahu was facing months of massive protests against his rule before Hamas attacked.

There just is no real equivalency, Israel is not "evenly divided" on "do we genocide", instead it is a extremist position within Israel, that even for all the bad things you can say about Likud / Netanyahu, do not represent their position. The Arab street beyond just Palestine but throughout the region is little distinguished between Nazi rallies in 1930s Germany in terms of their mindset and scope.

[DGuller]

Ohhh, you guys shouldn't say Palestinians, some useful idiot is going to come around and say that the Palestinians is not a homogenous block and that you can't treat them as that whilst at the same time ignoring your point entirely.

Useful idiots will go say useful idiot things regardless of what you say.  If you're going to carry water for a side deliberately murdering civilians by the hundreds, you're probably already well-versed at ignoring what is actually done and what is actually said.  It's hard to not be an idiot yourself if you let idiots, useful or not, determine what you say and how you say it.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah, I mean if you want to make the argument a lot of anti-Israeli lefties are antisemitic and that is a major driving force, there is a ton of evidence to support it.

My take it a lot of these lefty progs (especially younger ones) aren't actually antisemites, but I think antisemitism is a problem in that circle. There are lefties like Corbyn who I think are genuine antisemites, and I think lefties "of a certain age" have a greater than average chance of being antisemitic, and that has set the tone of many discussion points etc in that broader political community.

Yeah. There is anti-semitism on the left - and I think in the UK Corbyn has helped mainstream some of that. I don't know if he's anti-semitic personally and I don't really care. People who he has aligned with and who have backed him are, and he has brought them a vastly larger platform than they had before he became leader. I think there is a bit of a risk of the left taking a "firewalls and cordons sanitaires for thee but not for me" approach. A number of those firewalls were blasted through under Corbyn and need to be put up again. For example, Dilly Hussain (70,000 followers, Huff Post contributor, columnist at Middle East Eye and Al-Jazeera English) posting that Dagestan "is the kind of welcome ALL Israelis should be receiving at the airports of Muslim-majority countries". He can hold those views, we should treat the outlets that employ him accordingly - just as we would with, say, Nick Fuentes or whoever else.

On the Glasgow pro-Palestine march they stopped outside Marks and Spencer chanting "Israel is a terrorist state". I think you need a particular type of mind to decide that targeting a department store famously founded by a Jew who'd emigrated to the UK from then Russia in the late 19th century is in some way relevant to Isreal and Palestine. It is anti-semitism to identify shops or institutions as "Jewish" (it's now a publicly listed company) and to target British Jewish life in response to Israel. I'd also note that the Glasgow march had an SNP MP booed and heckled off the mic because he called for a two state solution and refused to say Israel was committing genocide.

I think it is absolutely right that people should be able to demonstrate and I think there is something to Marie Le Conte's point that people are sort of split based on experience. People who attend or used to attend protests will tend to think "ever march will have random cranks" and people who don't/didn't will think "you're marching with those cranks!?" Both are kind of right. I accept that many people might not know, for example, that you shouldn't be joining in on "from the river to the sea". But I also think it's similar to the laundering of far-right slogans and ideas. If there's a protest every week and you're saying you should probably learn what it means, how it is interpreted by British Jews (see Simon Schama's tweet on this) and if you're comfortable endorsing that.

As I say I think it is possible to absolutely oppose Hamas' attack, to be against Israel's response or even fully anti-Zionist in your politics and to not be anti-semitic. It might take a it of effort but I think it's possible.

Ben-Gvr and Smotrich and the groups they represent are about as bad as the Palestinians. But it ignores a lot to suggest that is all of Israel, it isn't. No more than the 20% of American Republicans who are Nazis represent all of America and make us as bad Russia or China.

Sure - but they are in government, crucial to keeping Netanyahu in power and they are affecting policy in Israel proper and the West Bank. They will also be influencing the options Israel looks at in Gaza and I think the opposition need to be wary of that they are not used by the extremists to legitimate what they want to do. As I say I don't think Biden would be explicitly and publicly ruling out displacing Palestinians to Egypt or other countries if there wasn't a fear that was something Israel might do. There's a reason the West is making it very clear that they support Israel but it's not a blank cheque - and I don't think they'd be doing that if there weren't concerns over what a blank cheque might lead to.

I'm also curious where all the pro-Uighur demonstators are?  Where are the vigilantes harassing incoming flights from Beijing? The Uighur population in Xinjiang is more than twice the Palestinian population and the brutality of the oppression would embarrass the most hard right Israeli hardline.  Yet the only ones who seem to be really outraged about it are conservative China hawks.

Yeah I think in the general public eye it is less visible. I'm never sure how much of that is because of the difficulties in covering China, for commercial companies possible impacts of covering it (e.g. on ad revenue) or, perhaps, a bit of unconscious bias. But I also think there is possibly a bit of maybe unconscious bias around ostensibly left-wing dictatorships that exists in certain institutions like the press and academia. You think of Walter Duranty, the Webbs and similar very intelligent people who averted their eyes over Mao, the Khmer Rouge, Milosevic. Because they were either on the right side or opposing the right people.

I've also been incredibly struck by the fact we've just witnessed incredibly obvious ethnic cleansing in Armenia (and Azerbaijan still refers to the rest of Armenia as "Western Azerbaijan") and it barely blipped on the public consciousness. There's lots going on but and it's not a conflict which people could easily grasp and have a good guy v bad guy, or just apply pre-existing biases - Armenia's closest ally has been Russia, for example. But I'm still slightly amazed how little that was covered. I've thought Ukraine has had a resonance with Europe - the bombing of cities, tanks moving across steps, overwhelmed train stations filled with civilians trying to get out. I found the same resonance in thousands of people with their life on their backs fleeing and I'm surprised that didn't chime with people more broadly.

But I do always find it a tell when you speak with someone who is really incredibly and sort of solely focused on Israel-Palestine. If you've spent ten minutes in left-wing circles, you know exactly who I mean. And it is that firewall point of I think you have a choice on who and how you associate with people.

[Threviel]

When I first saw the films of the triumphant Palestinians celebrating the corpses, hostages, future rape victims and tractors I did not want to believe that a majority of the Palestinians supported this.

I tried to find data and concluded that about half of all Palestinians supported Hamas before the war. Inexplicably it seems like the conflict has increased Hamas support, nut just in Palestina but globally.

Judging from the global protests it also seems like a significant percentage of global muslims support jew-killings.

I don't really know what to do with this, it's just so dark.

[DGuller]

It is very disheartening that it seems like merely a week after a shocking and unprecedented slaughter, the fault lines were back to exactly where they were before.  If I were an Arab terrorist organization, I would wonder whether I need to limit myself in any way for the PR considerations, if even October 7 didn't move the needle in my support in the West.

[Tamas]

If you want a summary of videos of what was going down in Dagestan this (exiled) Russian vlogger I follow discussed them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skQ12tuNarE

Apparently the rumour spread that the Tel Aviv flight which was in fact on a refuel stop toward Moscow would unload its Jews in Dagestan, which triggered the pro-Palestinian humanitarian outrage.

Besides storming the airport (with the police standing aside) the humanitarianly concerned crowd also surrounded and checked cars on the road looking for Jews. There's also a short video of an Uzbeg guy successfully proving to a big crowd that he is not Jewish therefore avoiding lynching.