What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[DGuller]

I don't think that notice is mandatory.  You can omit it, and probably should.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Just because Russia wasn't a perfect free market before USSR doesn't mean that there weren't freedoms lost during the transition.  One of the reason so many peasants had to die is because a lot of them really, really didn't want to hand over all their cows and land to kolkhozes.

I mean, Tsarist Russia wasn't materially free market at all. The vast majority of peasants didn't own the land they worked on and had very limited ability to do much of anything other than what they were born into. The fact that some of them got killed is no different all from under the Tsars--whose policies often required the death of large numbers of peasants as well.

Your post also ignores that frankly, the peasants overwhelmingly supported the Communist revolution. Whether they supported the Bolsheviks is more complex.

It should also be noted that there are many ways to skin the Marxist cat, lots of Marxist movements didn't favor forced collectivization or things like that, either. A significant portion of Marxist theory ends up being a poor basis for running a country, but I find no real compelling argument it is a major source of autocracy. Autocracy is born of societies that don't believe people should have a say in how those societies are ran, and that largely accept massive killings and punishments to enforce the rules. This describes the sort of person who is a Russian to a tee, same goes for Chinese as well. This isn't an easy thing to change, and people will wrangle up different explanations as to why that is in different circumstances.

Frankly, in many respects after 75 years of Communism I think Russia, China and its actual people were far better off under Communist rule than they had been previously. Now, the contra-example--we don't know what the unfree archaic forms of government Russia / China had pre-Communism would have developed into had they not been overthrown. Maybe they too would have brought modernity and quality of life improvements to their populace, but what we do know is large swathes of Russia and China were indistinguishable from the Middle Ages when Communists took power, and under Communism both countries fought off incredibly dangerous and powerful invaders, and both industrialized and modernized across the board.

[The Brain]

I don't think Vietnam counts as incredibly powerful or invader.

[Sheilbh]

Also I think ideology was important - I think the Marxist-Leninist theory is a huge part of it. A vanguard leadership formed from the very long, very (often justifialy) paranoid Russian revolutionary fringe, heavy industrialisation (with peasants as class enemies), Marxist-Leninist national theory - I think all of these echo through the entire course of the USSR. Those features are, I think, what makes it distinctive beyond just a generically authoritarian regime.

I suppose I think there's a risk in removing that side that you flatten it by looking at it almost from the perpective of the perpetrator. It's an authoritarian regime, people die (or Stalin and statistics). I think from the perspective of who is targeted by the state the ideology is really important even if at times almost random - thousands being caught in the Great Terror because there was a quota that needed filling. Same applies for other regimes.

[viper37]

Still not sure what your point is Josq. We all know that in terms of degrees, 1988 USSR was not Holodomor, Katyn or Stalinist purges.

"My diarrhea today is not as runny as yesterday". Ok, sure, but you're still shitting yourself.

Shitting yourself and being a messy embarrassment is quite different to being at risk of dying of dehydration.

My point was in reply to the Soviets not being seen with enough horror, I think they're actually seen with too much horror post stalin. The cold war propeganda persists strongly.

If you are to make a ranking of the worst regimes of history then though stalin and Hitler would be 2 of the key competitors for the medals, the later Soviet union would struggle to crack the top 20 in most regards.

.
Generally left you in peace- it did. It depends on the specific era being talked about, crackdowns and 'free' periods ebbed and flowed, but stay clear of a few well known lines and generally as authoritarian dictatorships go people did have a fair bit of freedom to live their lives.

Well, the same could be said about the Pinochet regime.

Back to the USSR:
[]

I'm sorry, Jos, I still disagree with your assertion.

I don't get the point of this lengthy quote. Nobody here has said the Soviet union was overall good. Nobody has said anything about Jewish people.

Basically, you said that keeping you head down, you avoided trouble in the later parts of the Soviet Union.  I, among others, argue that is not exactly true.  Even after Stalin, you could get in a lot of trouble just for being who you were.  Not as bad as under the Nazis, not as bad under Stalin, but still worst than many other dictatorial regime.

Let's just agree to disagree, ok? 

[PJL]

Now, the contra-example--we don't know what the unfree archaic forms of government Russia / China had pre-Communism would have developed into had they not been overthrown. Maybe they too would have brought modernity and quality of life improvements to their populace, but what we do know is large swathes of Russia and China were indistinguishable from the Middle Ages when Communists took power, and under Communism both countries fought off incredibly dangerous and powerful invaders, and both industrialized and modernized across the board.

The dictatorships of Taiwan and South Korea are a good example of how non-communist regimes could also greatly improved the economic QOL of their peoples and also democratising themselves in the process. 

[The Brain]

Visiting the Soviet Union in the 1990s was like travelling back in time to the 1930s. They modernized much slower than non-Communist countries.

[grumbler]

If one is only concerned about death and death camps if they reach the level of Stalin or the Nazis, then yes, indeed, you are in fact trivializing death.

So far, you are the only one here to advance that argument, albeit as a strawman.

What is the point of making the argument that well It wasn't as bad as Auschwitz.

There are many, many, many things that weren't as bad as Auschwitz.  Noting that fact is completely uncontroversial.

[Razgovory]

Seriously?

Yeah, something from the 1970's or 1980's that depicts the Soviet Union as bad as it was in the Stalin era.

[Admiral Yi]

Yeah, something from the 1970's or 1980's that depicts the Soviet Union as bad as it was in the Stalin era.

Was Solzenitzin writing about Stalin or his own time?  That's the closest I can think of.

[crazy canuck]

If one is only concerned about death and death camps if they reach the level of Stalin or the Nazis, then yes, indeed, you are in fact trivializing death.

So far, you are the only one here to advance that argument, albeit as a strawman.

What is the point of making the argument that well It wasn't as bad as Auschwitz.

There are many, many, many things that weren't as bad as Auschwitz.  Noting that fact is completely uncontroversial.

You have not been following Jos' posts that closely.  For that I forgive you.

You see Gorby was really just misunderstood and it's all down to propaganda.  Don't worry about the people he caused to be killed.  Nothing to see here.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, something from the 1970's or 1980's that depicts the Soviet Union as bad as it was in the Stalin era.

Was Solzenitzin writing about Stalin or his own time?  That's the closest I can think of.

I'm not sure what Jos is talking about.  The Soviet Union still did a lot of bad stuff in it's old age.  It still had camps, it still shot people.  Sure, it it was better than the 1930's but that was sheer hell.  Sure you could keep your head down and probably not be thrown in a camp but that's a pretty low bar.  At its best, you could live a bland life of poverty and oppression hoping that the state didn't come down on you because someone informed on your cousin.

[Josquius]

If one is only concerned about death and death camps if they reach the level of Stalin or the Nazis, then yes, indeed, you are in fact trivializing death.

So far, you are the only one here to advance that argument, albeit as a strawman.

What is the point of making the argument that well It wasn't as bad as Auschwitz.

There are many, many, many things that weren't as bad as Auschwitz.  Noting that fact is completely uncontroversial.

You have not been following Jos' posts that closely.  For that I forgive you.

You see Gorby was really just misunderstood and it's all down to propaganda.  Don't worry about the people he caused to be killed.  Nothing to see here.

I think you're the one who hasn't been following my posts closely. I've been pretty clear in every post the soviet union was obviously bad and we're just talking degrees of shit here.

[crazy canuck]

If one is only concerned about death and death camps if they reach the level of Stalin or the Nazis, then yes, indeed, you are in fact trivializing death.

So far, you are the only one here to advance that argument, albeit as a strawman.

What is the point of making the argument that well It wasn't as bad as Auschwitz.

There are many, many, many things that weren't as bad as Auschwitz.  Noting that fact is completely uncontroversial.

You have not been following Jos' posts that closely.  For that I forgive you.

You see Gorby was really just misunderstood and it's all down to propaganda.  Don't worry about the people he caused to be killed.  Nothing to see here.

I think you're the one who hasn't been following my posts closely. I've been pretty clear in every post the soviet union was obviously bad and we're just talking degrees of shit here.

Actually everyone else has been trying to explain that very point to you.  You have essentially repeated Zoupa's earlier post in which he asked again what argument you were making.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't think Vietnam counts as incredibly powerful or invader.

Empire of Japan, ever hear of it?