Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[The Brain]

I've asked in the past why it's not possible to admit Ukraine to NATO while excepting the territories not controlled by it.  There are several members of NATO already who were admitted with exceptions:  India didn't trigger Article 5 by invading Goa.  We can even salami slice Russian-occupied territory, and add it to NATO as they become liberated.  Russia is not the only one who can play that game.

Article 5 only applies when members are attacked in Europe or North America (which doesn't contradict your Goa comment, in the sense that every NATO member has that exception).

Admitting only part of Ukraine into NATO would send the message that Ukraine is divisible. Which doesn't necessarily make it not the least bad option, but makes me a bit wary.

[Josquius]

The bigger problem there is that Russia isn't going to stop bombing Ukraine. It's starting WW3.
And what about the immediate front lines? Russia can only retreat and not shoot back?
Might as well just give normal membership if that's the plan.

[Admiral Yi]

What you guys have said plus if we sign a treaty that says Ukraine is in as soon as a peace is signed, it changes Russia's incentive structure.

[mongers]

Ukraine neeed to continue gradually enveloping the Russian border regions into the war zone, both to more effectively drive them off and to bring home the realities of war to 10s of millions of Russians.
Maybe onlywhen they realise their country is really at war and it will cost them much, will they then pressure Putin to end it/go?

[Tamas]

Ukraine neeed to continue gradually enveloping the Russian border regions into the war zone, both to more effectively drive them off and to bring home the realities of war to 10s of millions of Russians.
Maybe onlywhen they realise their country is really at war and it will cost them much, will they then pressure Putin to end it/go?

Yeah, but to me at least it's uncertain how a regressed indifferent society is going to react to that. But also clearly it is not an alternative to try and spare the average Russian from the effects of the war they are enabling, so there we go.

[Solmyr]

Ukraine neeed to continue gradually enveloping the Russian border regions into the war zone, both to more effectively drive them off and to bring home the realities of war to 10s of millions of Russians.
Maybe onlywhen they realise their country is really at war and it will cost them much, will they then pressure Putin to end it/go?

Yeah, but to me at least it's uncertain how a regressed indifferent society is going to react to that. But also clearly it is not an alternative to try and spare the average Russian from the effects of the war they are enabling, so there we go.

Right now the reaction is "See? Those Ukrainian nazis are attacking us. We need to support our troops!"

[Tamas]

Ukraine neeed to continue gradually enveloping the Russian border regions into the war zone, both to more effectively drive them off and to bring home the realities of war to 10s of millions of Russians.
Maybe onlywhen they realise their country is really at war and it will cost them much, will they then pressure Putin to end it/go?

Yeah, but to me at least it's uncertain how a regressed indifferent society is going to react to that. But also clearly it is not an alternative to try and spare the average Russian from the effects of the war they are enabling, so there we go.

Right now the reaction is "See? Those Ukrainian nazis are attacking us. We need to support our troops!"

Well, the official reaction, I am sure. But yeah. I think WW1 Germans were right not to push into "proper" Russia that much, if at all.

I wonder, if the Viet Cong organised attacks on civilians on US soil, would that had made anti-war positions more untenable? I think yes.

I guess what I am saying is: if you want to bring the war to the enemy's hinterland, do it when you can really DO it. So, Allied terror bombing of German and Japanese cities - productive. Nazi-style V2-ing of London that the Russians have been doing and I am afraid Ukrainians might be attempting, is not.

[HVC]

Deport all resident noncitizen Russians back. Might backfire and give more bodies for the army, but I think sending back dissatisfied young men would do more to destabilize Russia

[The Brain]

Btw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?

[The Brain]

Zelensky is in Sweden today. Sweden is sending its 13th aid package to Ukraine, and has asked the US to allow Swedish AMRAAMs to be sent.

[Threviel]

Back in the day Persia was a western ally and the Arabs were busy with Israel. There were no credible threats except the Soviets, even the Kurds were a non-issue. The main Turkish antagonist was Greece.

Interesting question.

[Threviel]

Zelensky is in Sweden today. Sweden is sending its 13th aid package to Ukraine, and has asked the US to allow Swedish AMRAAMs to be sent.

And a deal was apparently struck where the Swedish government supports (unclear how) a CV90 factory in Ukraine.

[Josquius]

Btw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?

Good point. They'd have to have.
I guess Europe and Asia are by nature vague concepts. They presumably class Asia as beginning on the Turkish side of its old border with the ussr (despite most definitions having it somewhere north of there) ?

[Zanza]

Btw, is there any additional stuff about Turkey in NATO documents, or is it understood by all that Turkey being attacked in Asia won't let them claim Article 5?

Yes, Article 6 which includes the entire Turkish territory into NATO. And French Algeria. 

[Zanza]

Zelensky is in Sweden today. Sweden is sending its 13th aid package to Ukraine, and has asked the US to allow Swedish AMRAAMs to be sent.

And a deal was apparently struck where the Swedish government supports (unclear how) a CV90 factory in Ukraine.

More importantly they are sending Gripen according to media here.