[Gay] Gay News from Around the Gay World That is Gay

[Sheilbh]

I am guessing maybe B and other parents are worried about how to explain why those dudes are dressed as ladies? But why would it have to be explained? They like to dress in ladies clothes for fun is all the explanation a kid would need, I would assume.

Yeah. I suppose from here you explain it in exactly the same way you explain a panto dame making double entendres for the adults in the audience. Not to mention that normally the hero (principal boy) is played by a woman.

FWIW from my memory of going to pantos as a kid and taking nieces and nephews etc - it's not a question that actually comes up. It might if the event is a drag story time because it's in the name.

But yeah I struggle to see why it's sexualised.

[garbon]

I am guessing maybe B and other parents are worried about how to explain why those dudes are dressed as ladies? But why would it have to be explained? They like to dress in ladies clothes for fun is all the explanation a kid would need, I would assume.

Yeah. I suppose from here you explain it in exactly the same way you explain a panto dame making double entendres for the adults in the audience. Not to mention that normally the hero (principal boy) is played by a woman.

FWIW from my memory of going to pantos as a kid and taking nieces and nephews etc - it's not a question that actually comes up. It might if the event is a drag story time because it's in the name.

But yeah I struggle to see why it's sexualised.

Well pantos are a very strange tradition from an American point of view.

[Josquius]

I remember when I was in primary school for a school trip we once went to a museum with a hefty Ancient Egypt exhibition.
Rather than just look around the museum they had a thing on with actors dressed up as ancient Egyptians and answering your questions. I can't remember most of these but I do remember one was a guy dressed like a pantomime dame Egyptian who was playing a housewife.
I kept bothering him for a complete list of animals they had.
Nobody questioned that this guy was dressed up as an old lady (30+? OLDS). Its just normal in the UK.

I am guessing maybe B and other parents are worried about how to explain why those dudes are dressed as ladies? But why would it have to be explained? They like to dress in ladies clothes for fun is all the explanation a kid would need, I would assume.

Ah! But what if the kids get the idea that its fun to crossdress and want to do it themselves?

[mongers]

The elephant in the room is some fascists trying to act as an Islamic State of Iran type morality police.

[Sheilbh]

I remember when I was in primary school for a school trip we once went to a museum with a hefty Ancient Egypt exhibition.
Rather than just look around the museum they had a thing on with actors dressed up as ancient Egyptians and answering your questions. I can't remember most of these but I do remember one was a guy dressed like a pantomime dame Egyptian who was playing a housewife.
I kept bothering him for a complete list of animals they had.
Nobody questioned that this guy was dressed up as an old lady (30+? OLDS). Its just normal in the UK.

Yeah - I'd love to read something about differences in American and British masculinities because I think there are differences.

But just thinking to when we were kids, Lily Savage and Dame Edna both had early evening, prime-time weekend TV shows. Lily Savage was a host on breakfast TV interviewing celebrities on a bed. I was thinking of this because someone recently shared a clip of Lily Savage interviewing Julian Clary, which was filled with innuendos and references to gay clubs ("I'm not some cheap tart at the Vauxhall Tavern." "What are you incinerating?!") but it was all on TV before 9am

Well pantos are a very strange tradition from an American point of view.

Fair - they are an odd tradition

[Barrister]

It's weird. What about all the tons of kids movies where men dress up as women? What about say Mulan (the good one)? I don't remember all the parents rushing their kids out of the movie theatre in horror in the scene where they dress up like women to save the Emperor. I don't know. It seems to me that men dressing in women's clothes has been part of kids and adults entertainment for literally centuries. The ability of culture warriors to invent fake issues to morally panic about is truly amazing.

It's funny and entertaining when done in a wholesome way.

But in this context it is about normalizing it. That is what this is really about, that is what is freaking out the culture warriors. It is not about protecting kids. It is about keeping trans people as weird and scary as possible.

There's a real destinction though between "men dressing up as women" aka crossdressing, and drag.

Drag involves exaggerated, over-the-top sexuality.  That kind of gender presentation is part and parcel of drag.

It's the difference between Mrs Doubtfire, and Ru Paul.

[Jacob]

Drag involves exaggerated, over-the-top sexuality.  That kind of gender presentation is part and parcel of drag.

Drag story hour would seem to disprove that, no? There doesn't seem to be any over-the-top sexuality involved in someone wearing dress and make-up reading children stories.

[The Larch]

Drag involves exaggerated, over-the-top sexuality.

I don't think that's the case, Beeb.

[Barrister]

I am guessing maybe B and other parents are worried about how to explain why those dudes are dressed as ladies? But why would it have to be explained? They like to dress in ladies clothes for fun is all the explanation a kid would need, I would assume.

Tamas, I've already had a conversation with my kids about why their formerly female nanny was now a boy called Nicholas. 

[Sheilbh]

There's a real destinction though between "men dressing up as women" aka crossdressing, and drag.

Drag involves exaggerated, over-the-top sexuality.  That kind of gender presentation is part and parcel of drag.

It's the difference between Mrs Doubtfire, and Ru Paul.

I think it's more that there's different styles of drag rather than one is drag and one isn't.

My understanding is the UK has always been more at the camp comedy end of things, while in the US you had pageants and ball culture - now I think a lot of it is shaped by Instagram and TikTok and about looks.

My guess would be that wherever you are a drag story time is more likely to be the camp comedy queens - but I could be wrong about all of this.

[Tamas]

I mean, most people can adjust their behaviour (as well as their clothes) from sexual to non-sexual based on the social situation, I fail to see why drag queens wouldn't be able to do that, or be reasonably expected to be do that.

[Barrister]

Drag involves exaggerated, over-the-top sexuality.  That kind of gender presentation is part and parcel of drag.

Drag story hour would seem to disprove that, no? There doesn't seem to be any over-the-top sexuality involved in someone wearing dress and make-up reading children stories.

Drag involves exaggerated, over-the-top sexuality.

I don't think that's the case, Beeb.

I didn't think characterizing drag as involving exaggerated, over-the-top sexuality would be particularly controversial. 

I'm not saying it contains explicit sex - not at all.  A drag queen can be completely G-rated.  Ru Paul's Drag Race is on mainstream television.

But it's gender presentation is still exaggerated..  It's not just a man in a dress - it's a man in a glittery, showy dress.  It's not a man wearing makeup - it's a man wearing heavy, ostentatious makeup.

(As I understand it, almost by definition a drag queen is not trans, so it's correct to call them a man, right?)

[Grey Fox]

I think drag people are going fast into transforming their previously burlesque characters into actual representation identities. It's bound to ruffle feathers and have a couple misfired opportunities.

Having the fascist militias come out in force against your ideas is a by product of how insane the US is more than anything else, imo.

[Barrister]

I mean, most people can adjust their behaviour (as well as their clothes) from sexual to non-sexual based on the social situation, I fail to see why drag queens wouldn't be able to do that, or be reasonably expected to be do that.

I have little doubt that at drag queen story hour the drag queen is acting in a very age-appropriate manner.  (Well actually I do have a little doubt, but the right-wing critique of DQSH is not that some drag queens act inappropriately, but rather the entire idea is wrong)

But I'm just doing a google image search for "drag queen story hour" - and in every picture the participants are appearing in a very exaggerated "drag queen" appearance.  These are not men dressed in a smart blouse wearing understated makeup!


By the way, am I wrong in assuming that such a thing has taken on a stupid culture war marker of its own?  That wherever the idea started, once right-wing yahoos like Dinesh D'Souza started using DQSH as some kind of marker of the downfall of western civilization, that actually spurred the creation of many more such efforts?

[garbon]

Oh so your fear is children seeing makeup on men. Got it!