Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[OttoVonBismarck]

I could definitely see enhanced missile defense being deployed in Poland or even western Ukraine with this as a justification for putting higher tech missile defense into Ukraine proper.

[Legbiter]

Time for the Poles to deploy their F-16s as "volunteers" 

[Legbiter]

Unconfirmed reports of "stray" Russian missiles hitting Polish territory and killing two Poles.

NATO article 4 seems to cover this.

"The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened."

[Zanza]

This should give NATO a credible rationale to shoot down any Russian missle it can reach from its own territory to defend itself.

[Barrister]

I seem to remember NATO bombing  the Chinese embassy in Belgrade by mistake back in the 90s, so I feel like if the Russians claim it was a mistake and apologize we don't have much reason to escalate.

[Sheilbh]

This should give NATO a credible rationale to shoot down any Russian missle it can reach from its own territory to defend itself.

Yeah I was thinking that - a de facto no fly zone around NATO borders because Russia's firing so many and so recklessly that they can't be expected to rely on Russia not hitting them and their citizens by mistake.

[Sheilbh]

I seem to remember NATO bombing  the Chinese embassy in Belgrade by mistake back in the 90s, so I feel like if the Russians claim it was a mistake and apologize we don't have much reason to escalate.

Yes and it's not a deliberate act.

But I think there is a difference between, say, killing two Poles by accidentally bombing the Polish embassy in Kyiv and (reportedly) missiles killing people on Polish sovereign territory.

Of course I suppose there's a possibility it's an anti-air missile gone stray?

[Tamas]

Bit of a trivia, not a single computer on the Hungarian emergency meeting:

[Barrister]

I seem to remember NATO bombing  the Chinese embassy in Belgrade by mistake back in the 90s, so I feel like if the Russians claim it was a mistake and apologize we don't have much reason to escalate.

Yes and it's not a deliberate act.

But I think there is a difference between, say, killing two Poles by accidentally bombing the Polish embassy in Kyiv and (reportedly) missiles killing people on Polish sovereign territory.

Of course I suppose there's a possibility it's an anti-air missile gone stray?

Or potential for them to be rockets that were destroyed by Ukrainian air defences that then crashed in Poland.

[The Larch]

Bit of a trivia, not a single computer on the Hungarian emergency meeting:

I guess that, if necessary, a tablet can be produced at a second's notice. In any case I can assume that the guys on computers are sitting in a room next door checking whatever needs to be checked.

[Sheilbh]

I guess that, if necessary, a tablet can be produced at a second's notice. In any case I can assume that the guys on computers are sitting in a room next door checking whatever needs to be checked.

Also I could be wrong but I feel like it might be fairly normal for very secure/sensitive meetings like this?

I'm sure there could be secure tablets or computers for meetings like this.

It makes me wonder if the NATO leaders at the G20 would even be able to have a meeting on this in Bali (Edit. Except for a fairly generic high level one).

[Tonitrus]

I am sure they could find a fairly isolated beach and some Hawaiian shirts...

[viper37]

Zelensky has apparently presented the outline of a desireable peace for Ukraine during the G20. It's as follows:



I'll try to find some details.

I don't know what most of those things actually mean in any practical sense.

They seem pretty self-explanatory for most points.

1- No threats about launching nukes, no nukes pointed toward Ukraine, no threats of dirty bombs detonated over Ukrainian territory and guarantees or retaliation by western nations in case of attacks à la Taiwan.
2- Crimea.  Exports and imports.  And stop destroying fields and infrastructures.
3- Stop destroying energy infrastructures.
4- Like you know, Ukraine releases all Russian prisoners, Russia releases all Ukraine prisoners and foreign mercenaries, that sort of things.
5- Self explanatory.
6- See 5.
7- Russian troops should be in Russia, the territory as recognized by the United Nations and most countries of the world, not the territory Russia recognizes as Russian soil.
8- Russia should stop attacking Ukrainian fields and not use chemical and biological weapons.
9- See 2014.
10- Make peace, a real peace, with a real end date, not some vague promises.

[The Larch]

I guess that, if necessary, a tablet can be produced at a second's notice. In any case I can assume that the guys on computers are sitting in a room next door checking whatever needs to be checked.

Also I could be wrong but I feel like it might be fairly normal for very secure/sensitive meetings like this?

I'm sure there could be secure tablets or computers for meetings like this.

I guess you're right, at the pic you don't even see a mobile phone at the table.

[Zanza]

It makes me wonder if the NATO leaders at the G20 would even be able to have a meeting on this in Bali (Edit. Except for a fairly generic high level one).

They could just meet in Airforce One, right?