Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Berkut]

While CCs argument for loggers applies, the difference between cops and delivery drivers can probably be explained by the measures Berkut refers to though.

Cops can afford these measures as their job is well-funded and well-protected by law.

Delivery drivers cannot as they are typically exploited persons from the poorest segments of society and have to take the risks inherent in their job so they make money to survive.

Delivery drivers do in fact take many measures to reduce the risks of their job - its the same measures we all take to reduce the risks of driving. Hell, it's the same measures that cops take, for that matter.

I don't see how any of the responds to the point though. Comparing them makes no sense. The stats don't suggest *anything* actually useful.

[Berkut]

Even if I do buy into the political traction I live in a democracy in which people who don't can out vote me.  The repercussions of their decisions can affect my life.  So salient.

Well, I'm not going to outvote you since I live in a different democracy.

My perception, from the democracy I live in, is that we should do our very best to prevent the further growth of the warrior-cop "we take unique risks so we should be given unique latitude" ethos amongst our police forces in Canada, and that the "if you're insufficiently deferential for your social class you only have yourself to blame if the police fucks you up" attitude is absolutely corrosive to a free and just society.

In my view, police officers do important and often thankless work which should absolutely be appreciated and rewarded. However, they also have a huge amount of authority and ability to apply discretion and thus the ability to mess up people's lives. As such police should be held to the highest standard of conduct.

Additionally, I think that police officers - as public servants authorized to apply force - owe an especially high duty of care to the public, including suspects and criminals.

In my view police work is an honourable and necessary profession that should respected, but it is not uniquely heroic or special. We - in the democracy I am in - should be vigilant towards abuse of power, corruption, and excessive deference (we don't always succeed, of course). When looking a the democracy you're in it seems to me that you fail too frequently in that regard, and the "there's something uniquely special about our heroic cops risking their lives every day" ideology is part of the reason for that. I don't know how to unfuck that situation, though.

I generally agree with all of this. 

I think the militarization of the police is

1) Unnecessary and doesn't make cops safer in any significant way, and
2) Is actively detrimental to them doing their actual job

I just don't think bullshit like comparing their death rate to delivery drivers or fishermen is even a little relevant to that argument, one way or the other.

[Admiral Yi]

What do you mean by "deference" Jake?

"Yes officer, I'm sorry I was speeding?"

"We salute our brave uniformed officers killed in the line of duty?"

"Yeah, shoot whoever you want, we trust your judgement?"

Something else?

[Syt]

Not from my family or friends, but I feel it still belongs here.

[Valmy]

So she is saying African-Americans are an oppressed minority? Huh. Didn't expect that from Owens.

[Eddie Teach]

Has Candace Owens been reading Languish? 

[crazy canuck]

While CCs argument for loggers applies, the difference between cops and delivery drivers can probably be explained by the measures Berkut refers to though.

Cops can afford these measures as their job is well-funded and well-protected by law.

Delivery drivers cannot as they are typically exploited persons from the poorest segments of society and have to take the risks inherent in their job so they make money to survive.

I agree, not only does the the work of being a delivery driver have inherent dangers, they receive little I the way training, equipment or support to mitigate those risks - especially when compared to other dangerous work like loggers, miners etc. 

[crazy canuck]

While CCs argument for loggers applies, the difference between cops and delivery drivers can probably be explained by the measures Berkut refers to though.

Cops can afford these measures as their job is well-funded and well-protected by law.

Delivery drivers cannot as they are typically exploited persons from the poorest segments of society and have to take the risks inherent in their job so they make money to survive.

Delivery drivers do in fact take many measures to reduce the risks of their job - its the same measures we all take to reduce the risks of driving. Hell, it's the same measures that cops take, for that matter.

I don't see how any of the responds to the point though. Comparing them makes no sense. The stats don't suggest *anything* actually useful.

US Delivery drivers definitely receive better training and equipment then the rest of the world.  But do you have a source for your remarkable claim?

[grumbler]

While CCs argument for loggers applies, the difference between cops and delivery drivers can probably be explained by the measures Berkut refers to though.

Cops can afford these measures as their job is well-funded and well-protected by law.

Delivery drivers cannot as they are typically exploited persons from the poorest segments of society and have to take the risks inherent in their job so they make money to survive.

I think that you vastly overstate the degree to which truck drivers come from "the poorest segments of society."  Truck drivers have a higher mortality rate because they are exposed to traffic accidents for a much greater proportion of their time on the job.

If we are talking just homicides on the job, the statistics are very different.  In 2000, these were the numbers reported by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics (all oper 100k workers):

Cab Driver: 17.9
Police: 4.4
Private Security: 4.1
Managers/Executives in food/beverage industry: 2.5
Truck Drivers: 0.7

BLS

Driving is dangerous, but not murderous.

[garbon]

While CCs argument for loggers applies, the difference between cops and delivery drivers can probably be explained by the measures Berkut refers to though.

Cops can afford these measures as their job is well-funded and well-protected by law.

Delivery drivers cannot as they are typically exploited persons from the poorest segments of society and have to take the risks inherent in their job so they make money to survive.

I think that you vastly overstate the degree to which truck drivers come from "the poorest segments of society."  Truck drivers have a higher mortality rate because they are exposed to traffic accidents for a much greater proportion of their time on the job.

If we are talking just homicides on the job, the statistics are very different.  In 2000, these were the numbers reported by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics (all oper 100k workers):

Cab Driver: 17.9
Police: 4.4
Private Security: 4.1
Managers/Executives in food/beverage industry: 2.5
Truck Drivers: 0.7

BLS

Driving is dangerous, but not murderous.

I think I found the issue. The meme makes reference to pizza delivery so people falling in same category as gig economy workers. However the BLS stats sitting behind it appear to be based on both those delivery workers but also truck delivery drivers who don't fully overlap with the gig economy.

[Berkut]

While CCs argument for loggers applies, the difference between cops and delivery drivers can probably be explained by the measures Berkut refers to though.

Cops can afford these measures as their job is well-funded and well-protected by law.

Delivery drivers cannot as they are typically exploited persons from the poorest segments of society and have to take the risks inherent in their job so they make money to survive.

Delivery drivers do in fact take many measures to reduce the risks of their job - its the same measures we all take to reduce the risks of driving. Hell, it's the same measures that cops take, for that matter.

I don't see how any of the responds to the point though. Comparing them makes no sense. The stats don't suggest *anything* actually useful.

US Delivery drivers definitely receive better training and equipment then the rest of the world.  But do you have a source for your remarkable claim?

I have a feeling the claim I think I made, and the straw colored one in your mind are not the same.

Try steel manning my post, and responding again.

[grumbler]

I think I found the issue. The meme makes reference to pizza delivery so people falling in same category as gig economy workers. However the BLS stats sitting behind it appear to be based on both those delivery workers but also truck delivery drivers who don't fully overlap with the gig economy.

Yeah, memes are designed to promote misinformation, either maliciously (as in this case) or humorously.  This one deliberately misuses the data on truck drivers (including delivery drivers) as well as misusing the term "dangerous."  Saying the a non-humorous meme "sounds suspicious" is like saying that water sounds wet.

[The Minsky Moment]

I agree with Berkut's basic point - many jobs entail danger for various reasons but at a basic level putting oneself into dangerous situations involving other people (and not just nature or risk in the abstract) *IS* the job of the police.  And that is part of the reason why police - like members of the uniformed armed services - attract political and social support, even if in terms of risk outcomes, one can find other jobs with higher mortality risks per person per unit of time.

The police attract mixed responses because their position in society is ill-defined.  One can imagine two poles: at one pole is the police as thuggish head-knockers using brutality or the threat of brutality to maintain the power of a ruling class and keep dissenters in line - a role police have played in many historical times and places.  At the other pole is police as a true profession - a well-trained and educated cadre of professional officers, under democratic control, responsible for responding to breaches of the peace in all their many manifestations, incorporating the best current practices. 

In the US, police departments fall variously between those two poles - with different strata of people experiencing different aspects of police interaction.  That explains the different perceptions and levels of social support for police. And also why the "defund the police" movement, in addition to being terrible politics, was also bad policy.  Because if the goal is to have police departments move to pole 2, there is a need for more funding, not less.

[Zoupa]

There is no need for more funding, just move the cash around.

Maybe don't buy an APC next budget and spend that on training.

[garbon]

There is no need for more funding, just move the cash around.

Maybe don't buy an APC next budget and spend that on training.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, Joan, but I struggle to see evidence that increasing funding will make the police less shitty. Or is it just that higher wages will attract better calibre people?