Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Duque de Bragança]

The UK, and particulary Scotland, has always been in the forefront of the more *esoteric* marine renewables, like wave energy and tide energy. None of them are still anywhere close to becoming comercial, even after decades of research and pilot experiments like the one you mention.

Yeah I hope the new experimental ones work - and again I'm not sure commercially viable is necessarily the criteria at this stage (though obviously it allows for huge growth - eg with solar and wind as they've become so much cheaper) as much as whether it can generated enough and can be scaled. I don't think we can necessarily rely on commercially viable options for net zero.

Although I really hope tidal power is viable because it's predictable and I feel like that'll be helpful as a base renewable (a bit like hydro in countries with the geography for that). Also on a purely aesthetic level I find there's something really cool about the idea of ultimately powering our society by the moon

Tidal power actually has a long history in France, dating from the '60s.
Still working:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_Tidal_Power_Station

It took almost 20 years for the La Rance to pay for itself.

Assessments[edit]
In spite of the high development cost of the project, the costs have now been recovered, and electricity production costs are lower than that of nuclear power generation (1.8 ¢/kWh versus 2.5 ¢/kWh for nuclear).[4] However, the capacity factor of the plant is 28%, lower than 85–90% for nuclear power.

[The Larch]

The UK is, in fact, a world leader in offshore wind power (the largest wind farm in the world is like 100 km off the coast of Hull, for instance), only behind China. You can add that to the sectors that the UK is good at, and it's actually one with an industrial base, that can help deprived coastal areas, as shipyards can be turned into supporting actors for the industry.

In Europe most countries around the North sea are heavy into offshore wind farms. Denmark was historically the other industry leader in Europe together with the UK. Germany has also grown exponentially in recent years, and nowadays together with the UK they both account for like 2/3rds of worldwide installed offshore wind power. The other giant in this area is, of course, China.

Agreed. It is really cool when you fly over the North Sea or even parts of the Channel and seeing the giant wind farms. It should be a huge part of our strategy. Although the most deprived bits of British seaside are the old resort towns and sadly it probably wouldn't help them.

Is there any reason why it's been so much more adopted in the North Sea area? I imagine partly because those countries are rich enough to sustain the investment and they have developed power grids (same reason I imagine Orkney is of interest for tidal power) and partly because it's relatively shallow for fixed turbines. But surely there must be other bodies of water globally where off-shore wind could be used at scale?

I'd assume it's a number of issues, like difficulties to develop wind farms inland (lack of sites, NIMBYism, etc.), the North Sea being relatively shallow (Doggerland helps on that), and all countries involved being rich ones with robust industries, and not much of a fishing sector to complain about them.

The UK, and particulary Scotland, has always been in the forefront of the more *esoteric* marine renewables, like wave energy and tide energy. None of them are still anywhere close to becoming comercial, even after decades of research and pilot experiments like the one you mention.

Yeah I hope the new experimental ones work - and again I'm not sure commercially viable is necessarily the criteria at this stage (though obviously it allows for huge growth - eg with solar and wind as they've become so much cheaper) as much as whether it can generated enough and can be scaled. I don't think we can necessarily rely on commercially viable options for net zero.

Although I really hope tidal power is viable because it's predictable and I feel like that'll be helpful as a base renewable (a bit like hydro in countries with the geography for that). Also on a purely aesthetic level I find there's something really cool about the idea of ultimately powering our society by the moon

Well, we already power our society in part by the sun, so... 

There are a few tidal power plants active in the world, but they're quite unique and I guess their models couldn't really be replicated as they depended on heavily local factors. For instance, France has a tidal power plant in Brittany that operates since the 60s.

Edit: The one Duque mentioned, Rance, is the one I was talking about.

[Sheilbh]

Well, we already power our society in part by the sun, so... 

Yes I think that'd be very cool

Edit: And yeah I know there's other tidal plants - I think the thing they've been trying to do in Orkney for years now (and have experimental turbines) is slightly different thought. There's nothing like a dam around a reservoir or body of water - I think they're trying to build free-standing (floating? ) turbines that basically can just be placed in areas of strong currents - and the Pentland Firth/Orkney where the North Sea meets the Atlantic is really good for that. But again I imagine there'd be loads of bits of the oceans where there are similarly strong currents where it could be used - if it works.

[Habbaku]

Thanks for cutting the rest of my post. Real honest discussion tactic you have there.    

When you post a Martinus-level analogy, don't be surprised when people treat you like Martinus.

[The Larch]

Well, we already power our society in part by the sun, so... 

Yes I think that'd be very cool

And remember that our cars run mostly on dead dinosaurs. 

[The Larch]

Maybe we should take the energy debate to a new thread rather than keep hijacking the one about the war?

[Habbaku]

Maybe we should take the energy debate to a new thread rather than keep hijacking the one about the war?

This is now an ECW thread.

[Jacob]

When you post a Martinus-level analogy, don't be surprised when people treat you like Martinus.

That's quite the analogy 

[Eddie Teach]

Unban Martinus plox. Clear teh Aire!

[Valmy]

Maybe we should take the energy debate to a new thread rather than keep hijacking the one about the war?

Well it is a strategic element in the war, energy diplomacy and all that.

[Legbiter]

Well it is a strategic element in the war, energy diplomacy and all that.

Yeah. Hopefully Germany and Italy don't go full Sri Lanka next January.

[Admiral Yi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-XbalIkXY0

I thought this was going to be a cool new kind of antitank mine but it turns out at the end to just be a shaped charge rocket on a tripwire.

Krauter fabricken.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Well it is a strategic element in the war, energy diplomacy and all that.

Yeah. Hopefully Germany and Italy don't go full Sri Lanka next January.

Unlike Sri Lanka both of them didn't have their agriculture collapse due not using fertilizer and trying to everything 'biologically'. And having a state that works in at least most of the cases helps too

[Legbiter]

Unlike Sri Lanka both of them didn't have their agriculture collapse due not using fertilizer and trying to everything 'biologically'. And having a state that works in at least most of the cases helps too

Yeah it's still going to be a very bad winter at least, because so much of the European growth model relied on cheap Russian energy. Add in fertilizer prices and home heating skyrocketing, this will probably lead to a sharp Eurozone recession.  

[Zanza]

@Sheilbh: The question is: "Should we support Ukraine despite high energy prices?"