Finland, Sweden + NATO

[Razgovory]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

[Grey Fox]

The thing with America is that it's hegemony is really annoying when you're on the receiving end of it, just like it would be if it was China or Russia or the English empire.

I've worked for a Quebec company, a Canadian company and an American company. I have not change jobs or responsibilities . It has not had any positive effects on the work or our products. It only creates hurdles and share holder values.

Fucking share holders.

[Berkut]

The thing with America is that it's hegemony is really annoying when you're on the receiving end of it, just like it would be if it was China or Russia or the English empire.

I think this is the crux of it.

Anyone in charge would be seen by a lot of people who aren't really using reason but rather emotion as being the assholes.

That is a initial cognitive breakdown, but then it gets followed up with deciding that the wanna-bes in charge would be much better assholes if they were in charge....

[Sheilbh]

What I can't understand, is those outside of Russia who somehow take Russia's side nowadays after the fall of the Soviets. They are horrible without espousing any utopian ideology. Their ideology, insofar as it exists, is raw Russian ethno-nationalism. Unless it is their very backwardness in social matters and attachment to a strong man that is attractive, I can't see any reason to take their side. 

In the UK the Stop the War Coalition is one of many front organsiations that's actually run by the Socialist Workers Party who are Trots. It's the classic tactic of the hard left of setting up attractive front organisations that build support among ordinary people on the left but are actually run by the party - off the top of my head Stand up to Racism is another big campaign of theirs.

Their take is old school Trotskyism. The USSR was a deformed workers' state. The US is an imperial hegemon so to resist US hegemony is to be anti-imperialist - and they support anti-imperialist struggle. They also tend to have a view (a little like Hobson on imperialism) that the US as a hegemon has an interest in war and violence even when it's not an active participant because it helps support the arms industry - basically the reason there was no slump after WW2 as there was after WW1 is because the US stayed on an arms footing.

That means they will broadly support whoever is opposed to the US as an anti-imperialist force and providing any form of military support to (for example, Ukraine) is merely fuelling the American permanent war economy supported by a war-fuelling media environment.

They'll ally with someone like Galloway who just likes dictatorships. Their line is slightly different and normally that of course they condemn all violence and human rights abuses, but it is more important that we don't further fuel conflict by supporting, say, Ukraine or opposing, say, Russia or Assad. As ever, everything before the "but" is just throat clearing.

Edit: On SWP fronts - during the 70s and 80s when fighting the National Front there was the Anti-Nazi League, they also had an anti-poll tax front during the poll tax riots in the late 80s. They constantly do it when there's a cause that picks up a lot of left-wing support and you see their banners and signs everywhere carried by people who have no idea. They'll probably set up a climate one next.

[Jacob]

I am very unfond of the entryist International Socialists, which is what the SWP calls itself in Canada.

[Sheilbh]

I am very unfond of the entryist International Socialists, which is what the SWP calls itself in Canada.

Yeah, same. I don't like them at all here.

I generally swerve any demonstration I see which one of their front groups are organising. I've been to a couple without realising that the organisers were actually just a front. But they are everywhere on left wing organising because, I don't fully get it, but entryists just have so much time on their hands - both in terms of organising these front groups and also when they latch onto an existing left-wing group just grinding out everyone through procedure. I just want nothing to do with them - I disagree with them profoundly on so much and the way they operate.

[Jacob]

Yeah, they tried that with a group I was part of.

"We need a broad based popular movement, so we'll join this group that's moderately successful this moment and destroy it be creating pointless infighting and driving people out."

[Admiral Yi]

On the USSR the saner defences I've seen say that to varying extents (if crazy as far as stalin at his worst, more moderately the actually not as bad as people think post stalin years) most of the bad shit about the Soviet union was just there as it was a nation under siege by reactionary powers, it never got a fair chance and had to do insert bad thing here because they had no choice,it was that or threaten any chance of communism.

That argument doesn't hold up very well at any time other than the Civil War and WWII.

[Solmyr]

Get out with your USSR shit from the Finland & NATO thread!

[The Brain]

Utopian ideologies are horrible and destructive.

[CountDeMoney]

Utopian ideologies are horrible and destructive.

Right. "A more perfect union" my ass.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

like I said: any excuse

[Threviel]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

I've had a few Stalinist friends of friends that claimed that: "Yeah, Stalin did a few bad things, but it was necessary, and look at the US in whatever, they are much worse. Cuba has better health care now than at the revolution"

[The Brain]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

[Josquius]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.