Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[viper37]

You can be a nationalist for one ethnic group while being a patriot of your country.  Many Quebec nationalists used to militate in the Liberal Party, a Federalist party.

Being a Jewish Nationalist - a Zionist, does not exclude that Jews could be patriot of the country they lived in.  It may or may not lead to conflicted interests, but the two are not mutually exclusive.  They are different representation of the same feelings.

You can be a proud American and still support the creation and expansion of the State of Israel.  Or you could be against the creation of a Jewish State, or simply against many of its policies, it wouldn't change your American patriotism.  You could also be an Israeli patriot, if you had the citizenship of Israel too.

Being an Hungarian Jewish patriot of the AH Empire does not preclude that this individual Jewish person could have been proud of his Jewish cultural heritage.  There is no contradiction here.  An Hungarian could have supported the Empire (a patriot) while being in favor of more autonomy for Hungary.  That he was a Zionist or not is irrelevant to his patriotism toward AH.  But he simply couldn't be a Jewish patriot because there were no  such thing as a Jewish State and no single group inhabiting a clearly defined territory, unlike today.

I think the definitions I posted pretty much speak for themselves.  People often conflate nationalism with imperialism in their desire to devilize nationalism.  Which is a trait shared by most imperialists.  WW1 and WWII were not started by a small nation who wanted to be left alone.  Empires decided to negate the rights of their neighbors to exists as individual entity, just like Russia does today with Ukraine.  

The main difference with  how WWII begun is that Germans thought themselves ethnically superior to everyone else, while empires of the past simply thought themselves culturally superior to everyone else.  Everything being equal, had Germany not invaded Czechoslovakia and Poland, there would have been no rearmament and no war.  UK and France would not have invaded Germany because they were killing Jews and disabled people and the US would have stayed isolationist until it was attacked.

But the moment the Empire moved to militarily annex neighboring countries, things started to move.

Right now, your Republican Party is composed of self defined patriots.  In the name of America's greatness, they trample the rights of many non extremist Christian minorities and dislike foreigners because they are not Americans and want a piece of their pie.

[DGuller]

I really wish Sir Hockey was around to explain again how T-72 armor is better than Chobham or anything the West has. 

Then again, I suppose it wasn't designed to protect the crew from the shells they sit on.  Maybe they should put reactive armor on the inside?

Maybe the shells inside are the reactive armor?

[Sheilbh]

Interesting analysis of article in the Russian press and the challenge of explaining why they haven't won - I particularly like that it turns out Russia is fighting Russian

Mark Galeotti
@MarkGaleotti
"The Ukrainian army is an amazing and very strong combination of a Russian soldier, a fascist officer and an American general"
The convolutions hardline Russian commentators must go through to explain their failures in #UkraineRussianWar. A short thread 1/
It is, of course, quite a challenge how to pivot from "we will be welcomed" to "we are being hammered" but Russia's propagandists are doing their best. Markov's article, linked in the first tweet, is a better example than most 2/
1st, the need to share the blame: "The Ukrainian army turned out to be much stronger than it was supposed, looking from Russia, and much stronger than it was seen by Western analysts" - ie, we were no more wrong than anyone else 3/
2nd, an attempt, in effect, to claim the credit (this is quite ingenious): "The rank and file are Russian people; the language of the UKR army is RU. The RU soldier has been considered one of the strongest in the world for centuries." 4/
In other words, the only reason Russians are not winning is that they are being resisted by, if they but knew it, Russians! But why are they fighting? 5/
It's because they are controlled by a "nazified" "officer corps ...[that] is very ideological, motivated, ready to die and kill others. This combination of Russian soldier and fascist officer is successfully managed by American generals" 6/
3rd. US generals? Of course - this is just a proxy war with NATO, run "not only by advisers from the Pentagon, but also UKR generals trained over the years by the Americans. They are loyal to the US and Britain, and most  have both American and British passports" (News to me) 7/
They also "receives strong support from the electronic intelligence of the strongest military powers - the United States and Britain" (It's always nice for the UK to get co-star billing in these lurid nationalist dramas). The point is that RU failures are because of NATO 8/
So it's an excuse and also a pretext for any further escalation to wartime footing and mobilisation: because RU is not just losing against a country with less than 1/3rd its pop, but the whole Western alliance 9/
So the UKR army "is, in fact, the external centre's occupying army, using civilians as hostages. But ...at the moment the population of Ukraine is not able to express its political will, being under the pressure of terror and propaganda." Hence this can still be spun as... 10/
...A war of 'liberation' - but also liberating Ukrainians from the false consciousness of not realising that they are being repressed. All nonsense, of course, but for me the best encapsulation of the emerging Kremlin line and the bizarre contortions it is having to make. 11/end

Edit: Also excellent report on Russia refusing to take back bodies of Russian soldiers found by Ukrainian military forensics teams:
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1524818048372310017?s=20&t=r2xaBcVTg9P2tV5_QFgkpg

[Berkut]

Reminds me of the Brit propaganda during the War of 1812 to explain how british warships got their asses kicked by American warships - it was because the American warships were all crewed by British sailors, of course!

[celedhring]

Well, nice to see they have to start making up excuses I guess, "all going to plan" doesn't fly anymore.

[The Minsky Moment]

Reminds me of the Brit propaganda during the War of 1812 to explain how british warships got their asses kicked by American warships - it was because the American warships were all crewed by British sailors, of course!

And the British ships were crewed by impressed Americans.

So really the British won

[grumbler]

Reminds me of the Brit propaganda during the War of 1812 to explain how british warships got their asses kicked by American warships - it was because the American warships were all crewed by British sailors, of course!

And the British ships were crewed by impressed Americans.

So really the British won

History books claim that the Americans were impressed, but I suspect that they were actually quite disappointed.

[11B4V]

If I am understanding this correctly, this is in addition to the losses I posted above? 

https://twitter.com/Danspiun/status/1524101694732255232

So the RuAF Bilohorivka crossing was a disaster. As well as yesterday's bridge pics, 6 more here https://t.me/informnapalm/8422. Rough count: 31 AFVs in the 6 new pics + 5 more out of view between here and river that I saw in imagery sent to me yesterday + 2 in the water. h/t
@DefMon3

Orcs on fire. Fuck them...

[11B4V]

If I am understanding this correctly, this is in addition to the losses I posted above? 

https://twitter.com/Danspiun/status/1524101694732255232

So the RuAF Bilohorivka crossing was a disaster. As well as yesterday's bridge pics, 6 more here https://t.me/informnapalm/8422. Rough count: 31 AFVs in the 6 new pics + 5 more out of view between here and river that I saw in imagery sent to me yesterday + 2 in the water. h/t
@DefMon3

Orcs on fire. Fuck them...

Oooo, but easily recreatable using Day's new MBT series.

 

[Eddie Teach]

Reminds me of the Brit propaganda during the War of 1812 to explain how british warships got their asses kicked by American warships - it was because the American warships were all crewed by British sailors, of course!

And the British ships were crewed by impressed Americans.

So really the British won

History books claim that the Americans were impressed, but I suspect that they were actually quite disappointed.

Sure, claim your knowledge of the period comes from books...

[The Minsky Moment]

Reminds me of the Brit propaganda during the War of 1812 to explain how british warships got their asses kicked by American warships - it was because the American warships were all crewed by British sailors, of course!

And the British ships were crewed by impressed Americans.

So really the British won

History books claim that the Americans were impressed, but I suspect that they were actually quite disappointed.

Only when the food rations were distributed.

[Valmy]

Ship's biscuits and limes. At least you got some rum.

[Razgovory]

You can be a nationalist for one ethnic group while being a patriot of your country.  Many Quebec nationalists used to militate in the Liberal Party, a Federalist party.

Being a Jewish Nationalist - a Zionist, does not exclude that Jews could be patriot of the country they lived in.  It may or may not lead to conflicted interests, but the two are not mutually exclusive.  They are different representation of the same feelings.

You can be a proud American and still support the creation and expansion of the State of Israel.  Or you could be against the creation of a Jewish State, or simply against many of its policies, it wouldn't change your American patriotism.  You could also be an Israeli patriot, if you had the citizenship of Israel too.

Being an Hungarian Jewish patriot of the AH Empire does not preclude that this individual Jewish person could have been proud of his Jewish cultural heritage.  There is no contradiction here.  An Hungarian could have supported the Empire (a patriot) while being in favor of more autonomy for Hungary.  That he was a Zionist or not is irrelevant to his patriotism toward AH.  But he simply couldn't be a Jewish patriot because there were no  such thing as a Jewish State and no single group inhabiting a clearly defined territory, unlike today.

I think the definitions I posted pretty much speak for themselves.  People often conflate nationalism with imperialism in their desire to devilize nationalism.  Which is a trait shared by most imperialists.  WW1 and WWII were not started by a small nation who wanted to be left alone.  Empires decided to negate the rights of their neighbors to exists as individual entity, just like Russia does today with Ukraine. 

The main difference with  how WWII begun is that Germans thought themselves ethnically superior to everyone else, while empires of the past simply thought themselves culturally superior to everyone else.  Everything being equal, had Germany not invaded Czechoslovakia and Poland, there would have been no rearmament and no war.  UK and France would not have invaded Germany because they were killing Jews and disabled people and the US would have stayed isolationist until it was attacked.

But the moment the Empire moved to militarily annex neighboring countries, things started to move.

Right now, your Republican Party is composed of self defined patriots.  In the name of America's greatness, they trample the rights of many non extremist Christian minorities and dislike foreigners because they are not Americans and want a piece of their pie.

...And the good people of Languish never did know what viper was going on about.

[viper37]

...And the good people of Languish never did know what viper was going on about.

Just as I said from the beginning, with the appropriate definitions.

[DGuller]

Shockingly, Rand Paul is holding up the aid to Ukraine.  Our intelligence has proven pretty devastating against Russian assets in Ukraine, maybe it's time to use it against Russian assets in Washington DC.