The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Tamas]

I like your take. Dark, realistic, real. That's how I'd like it.

Nah, we have enough of that. When even Star Trek goes for post-collapse stuff, let's have some nice high fantasy Tolkien.

[The Brain]

You could make a gritty Tolkien show (where we get to see Sam making those kids), just like you could make a clean GoT show (where stuff happens off camera). I think neither would give the feel of the books, which might not be the supreme measuring stick, but still I feel that something would be lost.

[grumbler]

The history of the Rings of Power (bar the elven ones) is pretty dark, so you need to have some dark story elements, but they don't need to be shown on-screen.  Tolkien felt no need to show the process by which Morgoth got elf women to have orc babies instead of elf babies, even though the results were kinda central to the story of the First Age.

[viper37]

But Tolkien fans seems to want everything on their screen to be exactly like in their bibles, word for word, description for description.  I find it... disturbing.

Of course we are talking about Tolkien fans who have actually read the The Silmarillion and obsess over its details, so we are already talking about a fringe.

This' the ones I'm talking about.  They're a vocal fringe.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The history of the Rings of Power (bar the elven ones) is pretty dark, so you need to have some dark story elements, but they don't need to be shown on-screen.  Tolkien felt no need to show the process by which Morgoth got elf women to have orc babies instead of elf babies, even though the results were kinda central to the story of the First Age.

A few years back I watched the 1948 film of Graham Greene's novel Brighton Rock : https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039220/

It had a "U" (universal) certificate but was nevertheless pretty chilling; the presentation of the nasty bits was subtle but very much there.....but the censors clearly thought that children would not spot all the implied cruelty and violence.

There should probably be more films/shows made with this approach in mind.

[Eddie Teach]

Plenty of cruelty and violence in cartoons for that matter.

[Malthus]

Heh the poster child for cruelty in a children's movie is Watership Down. A children's movie about cute cartoon rabbits, it has a "U" rating in the UK - and features explicit genocide by poison gas, murder (among other things, a rabbit gets its throat torn out onscreen, in a shower of gore), and torture (a dissident rabbit has his ears torn off) ...

[Sheilbh]

It had a "U" (universal) certificate but was nevertheless pretty chilling; the presentation of the nasty bits was subtle but very much there.....but the censors clearly thought that children would not spot all the implied cruelty and violence.

There should probably be more films/shows made with this approach in mind.

Yeah - films and books (especially books) for kids often deal with incredibly dark themes. They often do it obliquely or through the perspective of a child. But I think people often get this wrong by thinking the big hits for children are childish books/films. They're really, really not.

Heh the poster child for cruelty in a children's movie is Watership Down. A children's movie about cute cartoon rabbits, it has a "U" rating in the UK - and features explicit genocide by poison gas, murder (among other things, a rabbit gets its throat torn out onscreen, in a shower of gore), and torture (a dissident rabbit has his ears torn off) ...

Yeah. Every year there is some TV channel that decides that would be a nice Easter weekend film to general horror.

I think the BBFC have said it would probably be a PG ("parental guidance") now.

[The Brain]

This isn't about the new TV series, but IIRC this is a thread where LOTR nerds hang out, so here goes.

I am re-reading LOTR, currently on Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past, and I have some questions about Gandalf's developing understanding of the nature of Bilbo's ring, from the moment he learnt that Bilbo had found it to the moment he headed to Hobbiton again to toss it into Frodo's fireplace.

So Gandalf learns about Bilbo's ring and its most obvious ability. He immediately recognizes that it is a Great Ring, ie a Ring of Power. Are the Great Rings only the rings mentioned in the ring verse, or are there lesser Great Rings? I get the impression from Gandalf's information that Sauron knows that Gollum's ring is identical with The One, since he knows that all other of those famous rings from the verse are accounted for. The Three are hidden (though it's not necessarily 100% clear that Sauron can know this with certainty, but Gandalf seems to believe that he does). Of the Seven Sauron has three and four have been destroyed by dragons. He knows the Nine well. But if Sauron knows this, why was Gandalf so unsure? Even if Gandalf wasn't at the time completely sure about the fate of the Seven or Nine (in theory one of the Nine could have been killed, who knows I guess), he would know that Bilbo's ring was statistically reasonably likely to be The One. Presumably likely enough to warrant a wee bit more action on Gandalf's part.

One more question: Gandalf claims that Sauron thought that The One had been destroyed by the Elves, until he learnt about Gollum's ring. Does this mean that Sauron isn't aware of the fact that the Ring's destruction would end him? Earlier Gandalf says that "only one Power in this world knows all about the Rings and their effects", and my impression is that he means Sauron, the Lord of the Rings. But maybe not?

General comment: obviously what a character says may be lies, but my guess is that Gandalf is being truthful with Frodo. Equally obvious is that a character may unknowingly have incomplete or faulty information and pass it on as truth.

[grumbler]

This isn't about the new TV series, but IIRC this is a thread where LOTR nerds hang out, so here goes.

I am re-reading LOTR, currently on Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past, and I have some questions about Gandalf's developing understanding of the nature of Bilbo's ring, from the moment he learnt that Bilbo had found it to the moment he headed to Hobbiton again to toss it into Frodo's fireplace.

So Gandalf learns about Bilbo's ring and its most obvious ability. He immediately recognizes that it is a Great Ring, ie a Ring of Power. Are the Great Rings only the rings mentioned in the ring verse, or are there lesser Great Rings? I get the impression from Gandalf's information that Sauron knows that Gollum's ring is identical with The One, since he knows that all other of those famous rings from the verse are accounted for. The Three are hidden (though it's not necessarily 100% clear that Sauron can know this with certainty, but Gandalf seems to believe that he does). Of the Seven Sauron has three and four have been destroyed by dragons. He knows the Nine well. But if Sauron knows this, why was Gandalf so unsure? Even if Gandalf wasn't at the time completely sure about the fate of the Seven or Nine (in theory one of the Nine could have been killed, who knows I guess), he would know that Bilbo's ring was statistically reasonably likely to be The One. Presumably likely enough to warrant a wee bit more action on Gandalf's part.

One more question: Gandalf claims that Sauron thought that The One had been destroyed by the Elves, until he learnt about Gollum's ring. Does this mean that Sauron isn't aware of the fact that the Ring's destruction would end him? Earlier Gandalf says that "only one Power in this world knows all about the Rings and their effects", and my impression is that he means Sauron, the Lord of the Rings. But maybe not?

General comment: obviously what a character says may be lies, but my guess is that Gandalf is being truthful with Frodo. Equally obvious is that a character may unknowingly have incomplete or faulty information and pass it on as truth.

I always thought that Gandalf considered it possible that one of the Seven had not, in fact been destroyed by a dragon.  Thus, the test. The point you made about Sauron thinking the One had been destroyed is one I hadn't even thought of, until you made it.

See, there are still things to be learned about TLOTR even after reading it all those times over all those years.

[Threviel]

My understanding is that Gandalf initially thought it was a lesser ring and that the insight grew on him that it was a great ring as the years wnt by and Bilbo didn't grow older naturally.

Not much was known about the One Ring and Gandalf spent a lot of time with ancient documents in Minas Tirith, befriending Faramir on the way, until he found the text by Isildur that describes the text on the ring.

Not until he tested it in fire did he know for certain and if he along the way suspected one of the great rings it would be much closer to assume that it was one of the dwarven ones, like grumbler says.

I seem to remember that there's a part of the appendix that discusses this quite closely, but I haven't read it for 20 or so years.

[The Brain]

My understanding is that Gandalf initially thought it was a lesser ring and that the insight grew on him that it was a great ring as the years wnt by and Bilbo didn't grow older naturally.

That was my understanding too. But now when I re-read the parts I noticed:

'When did I first begin to guess?', he mused, searching back in memory. 'It was the year that the White Council drove the Dark Power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first.'

[Threviel]

Tolien Gateway on Gandalf is a bit ambigous, first there's:

During this period Gandalf visited the Shire frequently, especially his friend Bilbo Baggins, and his younger cousin, Frodo. He noted Bilbo's unusual youthfulness, despite his advancing age; the suspicious "magic ring" that Bilbo had acquired during his adventure began to weigh on his mind. Gandalf recalled the deceit Bilbo used in originally claiming it for his own-- Bilbo had later admitted to stealing it from Gollum. Gandalf could see that Bilbo was now very preoccupied with the ring. Such un-hobbitlike behaviour aroused his suspicions. In 3001 he organised Bilbo's Farewell Party, and before leaving the Shire, he convinced Bilbo to leave the Ring for Frodo. He then emphatically warned Frodo not to use it; Gandalf had begun to suspect that the "magic ring" was indeed a ring of power. [27] Around that time Gandalf became unpopular in the Shire, blamed for Bilbo's disappearance, even accused for plotting with Frodo to get a hold on his wealth.[27][25]

And then there's:

Studying the records in Minas Tirith, he found the Scroll of Isildur and pieced together the missing history of the One Ring; on his way back to the Shire he got word from the Galadhrim that Aragorn had finally captured Gollum and he went to Mirkwood to meet him. For days he interrogated him in order to verify what he already knew, in 3017. A great fear came over him when he learned that Gollum had been to the Barad-dûr. Sauron had tortured Gollum and learned not only of the "magic ring", but also the names "Shire" and "Baggins". And the effects that Gandalf had seen on Gollum and Bilbo convinced him that the ring of the story was not one of the Rings of Power: it was the One Ruling Ring of Sauron. Gandalf now returned in haste to the Shire.[25][28]

Interesting. I'd go with number one but I'm quite sure that there's an answer out there somehere where Tolkien expands on this.

[The Brain]

It certainly seems possible that Gandalf simply misremembers during his chat with Frodo.

[Oexmelin]

I always kinda assumed there were lesser rings, great rings, and rings of power (i.e., the rings from the verses). As for Sauron, I imagine he may have thought he would not perish per se without the ring (he still is a tenuous shadow after the ring is destroyed, IIRC), but become almost powerless. That he had to spend a great deal of time and energy remaking himself may have convinced him it was through his own strength of will, rather than being tied to the ring itself.