Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Tamas]

Tyr when judging Ukrainians and holding them to very high standards of solemness you are ignoring two things: it's a foreign language and culture being translated to English so nuance and level of gloating with the word "glory to" might be lost in translation.

The other thing is that they are literally fighting for the survival of their independent nation

[Threviel]

Okish article on what the yanks are doing https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/us/politics/us-ukraine-weapons.html?referringSource=articleShare

[Josquius]

Tyr when judging Ukrainians and holding them to very high standards of solemness you are ignoring two things: it's a foreign language and culture being translated to English so nuance and level of gloating with the word "glory to" might be lost in translation.

The other thing is that they are literally fighting for the survival of their independent nation

As said this is all academic. Obviously people are going to do what they do and policing what they're saying in the middle of a war would be pretty damn ineffective. No expectation of Ukraine actually doing any of what I'm saying would be a better approach. .

The point is simply that though much is made of Ukraine "winning" on propeganda, its likely also helping to feed Russian propeganda in a way that is counter productive for Ukraine.
The more both countries entrench with seeing the other as the enemy and its very existence as a problem the less likely a remotely happy outcome can be reached. Things would be much better served if the emphasis could be put on we love Russia but Putin is fucking up the country.

[Syt]

China to provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine

China's Red Cross will provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine, Foreign Minister Wang Yi has said, as he reiterated a call for diplomatic talks to continue.

He stressed China's friendship with Russia are "rock solid" and the prospects for cooperation are very broad.

Yi's words comes hours after Australia's Prime Minister Scott Morrison urged China to denounce Russia.

In a lengthy foreign policy speech in Sydney, Morrison said China had repeatedly spoken about respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity.

"It is up to China, at this hinge point of history, to demonstrate these are more than just words," said Morrison, adding "no country would have a greater impact on Russia than China".

Until now, China's government has neither condemned nor condoned Russia's war on Ukraine and has even refrained from calling it an "invasion" in the first place.

But earlier this week, Yi signalled that China was ready to play a role in mediating a ceasefire.

[Syt]

Some humanitarian corridors lead to Belarus or Russia

As we've been reporting, Russia has said it will open new humanitarian corridors to allow civilians to evacuate.

Evacuation routes published by Russia's RIA Novosti news agency show civilians will be able to leave to Russia and Belarus.

The corridor from Kyiv will lead to Russian ally Belarus, and civilians from Kharkiv will only have a corridor leading to Russia.

Corridors from the cities of Mariupol and Sumy will lead both to other Ukrainian cities and to Russia, the AFP news agency reports.

"We'll let you leave ... to become our hostages!"

[Josquius]

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/yuan-become-russia-new-dollar-us-europe-sanctions-ukraine-war-080909694.html

This says Russia is sidestepping sanctions by moving up the timetable of becoming a Chinese vassal.

[Admiral Yi]

The point is simply that though much is made of Ukraine "winning" on propeganda, its likely also helping to feed Russian propeganda in a way that is counter productive for Ukraine.

If this was your point, why in the world did you start off by calling it semi fascy?

[Josquius]

The point is simply that though much is made of Ukraine "winning" on propeganda, its likely also helping to feed Russian propeganda in a way that is counter productive for Ukraine.

If this was your point, why in the world did you start off by calling it semi fascy?

Because it is?

[The Larch]

A lot is made of how Ukraine is winning the propeganda war online but with this sort of thing I do think they could be making an error. Rather than playing the card of democracy and being a country that wants peace a fair bit of the stuff the Ukrainians are putting out does seem a bit fascy.

Please elaborate.

Glory to Ukraine, fuck Russia, lots of hardcore nationalist stuff.
Which considering that's what Russia is smearing them with, as understandable as it might at a time like this be could be a misstep.

They are being invaded and in the middle of a defensive war for their survival, what the hell do you expect from them?

And I think that the war messaging on the Ukranian side (and by Western allies) is being mostly the correct approach, focusing the blame squarely on Putin himself rather than in Russia as a country or the Russians as a people, and generally sending the message to the average Russian foot soldier of "we know you're being led to a slaughter by careless leaders, but you're not responsible yourselves for all of this, so we'll treat you right if you surrender"

[The Larch]

As to ideal world what would be more effective: fuck Putin, this whole thing is happening because Covid has sent him loopy and he is pissed off Ukraine has democratically chosen to stop enriching him and his oligarch cronies; poor Russian conscripts, they're just kids being forced into this shit with minimal training and crap equipment and we are having to kill them in their hundreds as it's them or our families; Russia has reached a historic low point, hopefully there'll be a better tomorrow for both countries.

In which planet do you live? That is exactly what is being said and the message that is being sent across.

[The Larch]

Swedish PEN thinks that the book and movie industry should be exempt from sanctions, because reasons.

But I see your true colors
Shining through

Unrelated to this particular piece of news, but it serves me as a hook for an argument that I think is worth having, and it's about what is the proper attitude to have now regarding Russian cultural products.

We are seeing orchestras and performers having their concerts being threatened with being cancelled in the West unless they specifically come up as anti-war and/or anti-Putin. This I think can be understood, as you don't want to give a platform to a Putinist stooge. Then we have other, sillier or more ridiculous reactions, like a cinema festival in Spain that was going to show Solaris and last minute swapped the Tarkovsky version for the Clooney one "due to the international climate", or somesuch.

Where to draw the line?

[The Larch]

So, Russia has published a list of "Unfriendly countries", for which "Deals with securities or real estate with these countries or their citizens, as well as provision of rouble loans involving entities from countries unfriendly to Russia will require special authorisation from the Kremlin."

The list (not in full) features:

- USA
- Ukraine
- EU
- UK
- Canada
- Australia
- New Zealand
- Norway
- Iceland
- Switzerland
- Korea
- Japan
-    Taiwan 

Waiting now for China to blow a gasket at Russia admitting that Taiwan is an independent country. 

[Josephus]

The only good thing coming out of this is that it's a good thing this war is being fought now, not a year ago. I keep seeing the huddled masses on trains, in camps, in underground shelters, and my first thought is---COVID outbreak. Remarkably we haven't heard anything about that at all---which makes me think: Yup, COVID's over.

[celedhring]

Swedish PEN thinks that the book and movie industry should be exempt from sanctions, because reasons.

But I see your true colors
Shining through

Unrelated to this particular piece of news, but it serves me as a hook for an argument that I think is worth having, and it's about what is the proper attitude to have now regarding Russian cultural products.

We are seeing orchestras and performers having their concerts being threatened with being cancelled in the West unless they specifically come up as anti-war and/or anti-Putin. This I think can be understood, as you don't want to give a platform to a Putinist stooge. Then we have other, sillier or more ridiculous reactions, like a cinema festival in Spain that was going to show Solaris and last minute swapped the Tarkovsky version for the Clooney one "due to the international climate", or somesuch.

Where to draw the line?

Given Tarkovski's stance on war that one is extremely ridiculous.

I agree about not to give the time of the day to Putin stooges, though. The whole "if I speak up I will have trouble at home" doesn't kinda work with me. When facing this kind of naked aggression people should take a stand, particularly if you're well-off and mainly working internationally.

[Josquius]

Just randomly saw a video of the former head of MI6 speaking, found it quite interesting, especially in that he agrees with me on the possible missteps being taken with anti-Russian propeganda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw5lzKVn3sc