Languish.org

I heard someone say today that people make their biggest (and arguably best) decisions with their heart. That seems like it's probably not so much that way for everyone. So what is it for you guys?

There are no decisive processes taking place in your heart muscle.  :secret:

Um...generally unless my heart and head are lined up my decisions fail pretty pitifully.  I favor a: holistic decision making process :P

I try to use both. Herodotus discusses the habits of the Persians and says :

"It is also their general practice to deliberate upon affairs of weight when they are drunk; and then on the morrow, when they are sober, the decision to which they came the night before is put before them by the master of the house in which it was made; and if it is then approved of, they act on it; if not, they set it aside. Sometimes, however, they are sober at their first deliberation, but in this case they always reconsider the matter under the influence of wine. "

This always made sense to me, it avoids the Scylla of undue sentimentality and the Charybdis of acting like a dessicated calculating machine.

Meri left out a certain other organ men use to make decisions.

But I went for the second option.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 14, 2013, 03:53:22 PM
I try to use both. Herodotus discusses the habits of the Persians and says :

"It is also their general practice to deliberate upon affairs of weight when they are drunk; and then on the morrow, when they are sober, the decision to which they came the night before is put before them by the master of the house in which it was made; and if it is then approved of, they act on it; if not, they set it aside. Sometimes, however, they are sober at their first deliberation, but in this case they always reconsider the matter under the influence of wine. "

This always made sense to me, it avoids the Scylla of undue sentimentality and the Charybdis of acting like a dessicated calculating machine.

This is one of my favorite posts on Languish in a long while.

Quote from: derspiess on May 14, 2013, 03:54:42 PM
Meri left out a certain other organ men use to make decisions.

But I went for the second option.

Yeah but that rarely results in us making our best decisions :P

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 14, 2013, 03:53:22 PM
I try to use both. Herodotus discusses the habits of the Persians and says :

"It is also their general practice to deliberate upon affairs of weight when they are drunk; and then on the morrow, when they are sober, the decision to which they came the night before is put before them by the master of the house in which it was made; and if it is then approved of, they act on it; if not, they set it aside. Sometimes, however, they are sober at their first deliberation, but in this case they always reconsider the matter under the influence of wine. "

This always made sense to me, it avoids the Scylla of undue sentimentality and the Charybdis of acting like a dessicated calculating machine.

Holy simulpost ... this is what I was going to say, but you preempted me. And said it better to boot.  :lol:

"I'm guessing by "head" and "heart" you mean "intellectually versus intuitively/emotionally".

Reminds me of the notion in the Histories of Herodotus that the ancient Persians never made any important decision sober without reconsidering it when drunk - and vice versa.  ;)

Seems good to me.  "

That clarifies why the Persians have made so few good decisions since converting to Islam.

Spleen!

Stomach.  If hungry, eat.  If no hungry, not eat.

Quote from: Valmy on May 14, 2013, 03:57:42 PM
That clarifies why the Persians have made so few good decisions since converting to Islam.

Rumi wants a word with you about that ...  :D

"Either give me more wine or leave me alone."

Quote from: Habbaku on May 14, 2013, 04:01:30 PM
Stomach.  If hungry, eat.  If no hungry, not eat.

Oh fuck that noise. My stomach gets fed when I feel like it.

Quote from: Valmy on May 14, 2013, 03:57:42 PM
That clarifies why the Persians have made so few good decisions since converting to Islam.

:huh:     :lol:     :thumbsup:

Quote from: Valmy on May 14, 2013, 03:57:42 PM
That clarifies why the Persians have made so few good decisions since converting to Islam.

They shoulda had a V8!


(with vodka)

Quote from: Valmy on May 14, 2013, 03:55:32 PM

Quote from: derspiess on May 14, 2013, 03:54:42 PM
Meri left out a certain other organ men use to make decisions.

But I went for the second option.

Yeah but that rarely results in us making our best decisions :P

And falls under the "heart" category.

As soon as I saw the herodotus quote I assumed it was Malthus who posted it, because I'm sure he posted it before on Languish. -_-

Quote from: Barrister on May 14, 2013, 04:19:18 PM
As soon as I saw the herodotus quote I assumed it was Malthus who posted it, because I'm sure he posted it before on Languish. -_-

I was all ready to post it this time, but was beaten to the punch.  :D

There are certain Herodotus quotes that his fans are always desperate to post; the Persians making decisions is one of them and I knew I had to be quick  :D

Which, I guess, is an important reason why I have posted here for so many years  :cool:

99% head. There is one major decision in life to be left to the heart, but even that has rational components to it.



That is the "should" scenario. Like all people, I am human and make mistakes. But I always feel guilty about it when I do something based on whim or emotion. It's like I was too lazy to make the intellectual effort to think it through and make a proper decision. Or at least rationally validate the one I emotionally want to make.

Of course, the smarter you are, the more power you have to rationalize things. Heck lawyers do it for a living. The most intelligent can be the most wrong and the most entrenched in their wrongness.  :P

I'm not sure I can think of many times when the two have been in conflict for me. :hmm:

I think the issue with attempting to be TOO head-driven, as it were, is that the brain is less a rational organ than a rationalizing organ. We see an event unfold - unpredicted - and the brain constructs a story around it, a narrative, to make it seem as though it were a) inevitable and b) part of an entirely rational sequence of events. The brain's shortcuts are very often useful, as most shortcuts are, but one can easily plow down an irrational path while thinking one is being quite logical.

Quote from: fahdiz on May 14, 2013, 04:37:08 PM
I think the issue with attempting to be TOO head-driven, as it were, is that the brain is less a rational organ than a rationalizing organ. We see an event unfold - unpredicted - and the brain constructs a story around it, a narrative, to make it seem as though it were a) inevitable and b) part of an entirely rational sequence of events. The brain's shortcuts are very often useful, as most shortcuts are, but one can easily plow down an irrational path while thinking one is being quite logical.

Yeah you have to get out of your head to really make rational decisions.  Nothing can mess up your life as much as taking your own thoughts too seriously, not recognizing that alot of it is just random noise your brain produces as it takes in data.

For me, I'm not sure I can categories decisions this way. I think the mind/intellect constructs a future landscape within which possible emotional and other type of decisions can be taken.

So impart those decisions are defined and certainly the parameters of possibilities are formed by ones mental life. 

There's no way I'm going to have a dramatic argument and off the back of it commit a crime of passion, that's not me, though it might be part of a hard drink, hard living guy who lives more in the now.

But that's not to rule out I don't do daft emotional or romantic things, but they'll still be within the context of the emotional landscape I've constructed/ continue to construct.

I'm sure you'll be shocked that I voted 25/75% head/heart. I made decisions with my heart, and then think them over thoroughly to make sure that the long-term will work. Basically, I use my head to justify my heart's decision. :P

My decision-making processes are predicated solely upon the application of logic, reason and the scientific method.

seriously, this is a silly discussion. We are determined. Our actually decisions are made instinctively and any reasoning we pretend to do is merely rationalization. This is not a choice, it is merely an acceptance that our choices are made with the heart and only in the rarest cases by the most disciplined people does reason actually drive decision making.

Quote from: Viking on May 14, 2013, 05:51:26 PM
seriously, this is a silly discussion. We are determined. Our actually decisions are made instinctively and any reasoning we pretend to do is merely rationalization. This is not a choice, it is merely an acceptance that our choices are made with the heart and only in the rarest cases by the most disciplined people does reason actually drive decision making.

I knew you were going to say that.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 14, 2013, 06:16:39 PM

Quote from: Viking on May 14, 2013, 05:51:26 PM
seriously, this is a silly discussion. We are determined. Our actually decisions are made instinctively and any reasoning we pretend to do is merely rationalization. This is not a choice, it is merely an acceptance that our choices are made with the heart and only in the rarest cases by the most disciplined people does reason actually drive decision making.

I knew you were going to say that.

Of course, I had no choice.

I instinctively think rationally, so I don't know where that puts me.  :huh:

Quote from: DGuller on May 14, 2013, 06:32:50 PM
I instinctively think rationally, so I don't know where that puts me.  :huh:

Delusion Land.

I can see it.  The dude eats, sleeps, and breathes probabilities.

I try to make it 100% head, heart of course often creeps in and in practice takes up 25% or occasionally 50%, which is a grave error.

I was advised by my doctor to not think at all.  So I try to avoid all thinking.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 14, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
I can see it.  The dude eats, sleeps, and breathes probabilities.

He just thinks he's applying all those probabilities in the same way a computer of equivalent processing power might.

He isn't, though :)

My experience is that people have very poor long-term planning/projection, so they need to focus on their head rather than their usually destructive impulses ("heart").

On the flipside, many people (specifically women) are socialized ("head") to ignore or accommodate warning/danger signs/actions of future violence (or failure or accident or  bankruptcy, etc.). They go along with the situation or freeze when they should instead have followed the animal instinct of fight or flight (or scream/report to authorities). Doing nothing much more likely leads to rape and/or death; or stagnation/indecisiveness/cycle of failure in other areas such as career, relationships, choice of restaurant/clothes, etc.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 14, 2013, 04:35:36 PM
I'm not sure I can think of many times when the two have been in conflict for me. :hmm:

Yep. We're not rational creatures, we're rationalising.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 14, 2013, 05:51:07 PM
My decision-making processes are predicated solely upon the application of logic, reason and the scientific method.

And kittens.

Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2013, 06:50:46 PM
I was advised by my doctor to not think at all.  So I try to avoid all thinking.

Wise man.

Quote from: Tonitrus on May 14, 2013, 07:16:26 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 14, 2013, 05:51:07 PM
My decision-making processes are predicated solely upon the application of logic, reason and the scientific method.

And kittens.

And kittens.

Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2013, 06:50:46 PM
I was advised by my doctor to not think at all.  So I try to avoid all thinking.

We don't pay you to think :contract:

I don't decide anything.  Ever.

Quote from: PDH on May 14, 2013, 08:10:31 PM
I don't decide anything.  Ever.

You still have made a choice.   :punk:

Spleen's the closest option to where the real decisions are made. :P

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 14, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
I can see it.  The dude eats, sleeps, and breathes probabilities.

As a matter of fact, right now I am eating steak, drinking lots of wine, and submitting statistical model runs from my brand new remote connection to work computer.  :Embarrass:  I love my job, and I know I'm very lucky in that way, but why couldn't I love being someone in a far less geekier profession?  :(

You are complaining about loving a job that is respected and pays well?  Think of this way, you could have been a person who loves cleaning toilets or picking dead animals off the street.

I love lamp.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 14, 2013, 08:14:33 PM

Quote from: PDH on May 14, 2013, 08:10:31 PM
I don't decide anything.  Ever.

You still have made a choice.   :punk:

I chose free won't.

I try to make decisions logically. Sometimes I don't, and as long as I have an understanding with myself I'm not being realistic I'm okay with it.

Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2013, 09:00:18 PM
You are complaining about loving a job that is respected and pays well?  Think of this way, you could have been a person who loves cleaning toilets or picking dead animals off the street.

Dude, show me someone who loves cleaning toilets and I will show you the happiest motherfucker in the world.

Quote from: fahdiz on May 14, 2013, 11:15:35 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on May 14, 2013, 09:00:18 PM
You are complaining about loving a job that is respected and pays well?  Think of this way, you could have been a person who loves cleaning toilets or picking dead animals off the street.

Dude, show me someone who loves cleaning toilets and I will show you the happiest motherfucker in the world.

I don't know many people.  Since there are people who find eating feces erotic, I imagine there's someone who enjoys scrubbing toilets.  And if that person took a job in doing what he loves, he's probably not paid very well.

You know what? Never mind. :lol:

A conversation with Raz is like a listening to a muzak version of "Theme From a Summer Place" as the hold music on a suicide hotline.

Awww, what a sweet thing to say.  I didn't know you were so sentimental.