http://www.huffingtonpost.com/r-gil-kerlikowske/drug-policy-reform_b_3146426.html
http://newsone.com/2412446/obama-war-on-drugs/
Quote from: Jacob on April 24, 2013, 05:01:56 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/r-gil-kerlikowske/drug-policy-reform_b_3146426.html
http://newsone.com/2412446/obama-war-on-drugs/
They can't stop it, otherwise hippies will get all uppity. :cool:
We'll see it when it happens. Considering that Obama is the one who said he wouldn't be going after marijuana and then doubled down...call me skeptical.
Not likely but we can hope.
Cheech and Chong will be accepting Obama's surrender in Tokyo Bay?
There is some reason for hope. Obama is definitely the kind of politician to not rock the boat until polls move his way. Now that the polls are moving his way, his push to reign in the War on Drugs insanity may be genuine.
Of course, Obama is also the kind of politician to be unable to accomplish what he set out to do. There are a lot of powerful interests who benefit from the status quo, and are cynical and sociopathic enough to fight to defend it.
Well that's a shame. We may not be winning the war on drugs but we have them at stalemate. Sure, drugs invade our borders in vast numbers everyday, but few if are able to get back out.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 24, 2013, 07:18:28 PM
Well that's a shame. We may not be winning the war on drugs but we have them at stalemate. Sure, drugs invade our borders in vast numbers everyday, but few if are able to get back out.
:lmfao:
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
Would it help more than it would hurt? After all, huge segments of the law enforcement industry depend on drug crime.
Then again, I suppose that ending Prohibition helped the recovery from the Great Depression, so it's worth a shot.
The link I tried was a bust, can anyone give me specifics? Changing the law so importation and interstate commerce of drugs are no longer illegal? Leaving the laws but withdrawing interdiction resources?
Mission accomplished.
Based on the two links it sounds like a greater emphasis on treatment and prevention.
Which of course is not the same thing as legalization.
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 11:37:47 AM
Based on the two links it sounds like a greater emphasis on treatment and prevention.
Which of course is not the same thing as legalization.
But certainly a step in the right direction
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
How? Productivity would go to shit, anyway :P
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
How? Productivity would go to shit, anyway :p
I know you are joking and so this is not directed at you. But the assumption that more people will use if criminal sanctions are not imposed is a bit odd and unfortunately is the rational behind criminalizing a health issue.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 11:48:20 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
How? Productivity would go to shit, anyway :p
I know you are joking and so this is not directed at you. But the assumption that more people will use if criminal sanctions are not imposed is a bit odd and unfortunately is the rational behind criminalizing a health issue.
:huh:
It seems entirely logical that there is some number of people who would use drugs, but do not for the simple reason it is against the law.
Trying to estimate how many people that is would be quite difficult, but it's a number greater than zero.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 11:48:20 AM
I know you are joking and so this is not directed at you. But the assumption that more people will use if criminal sanctions are not imposed is a bit odd and unfortunately is the rational behind criminalizing a health issue.
I was joking but I would be surprised if drug use did not increase if decriminalized. I've heard plenty of drug legalization advocates say as much.
I have never smoked and do not intend to so as to not jeopardize my employment and security clearance.
However, if marijuana was legalized with usage causing no adverse effects, I would consider it. I assume smoking a joint is like enjoying a glass of wine?
Quote from: Phillip V on April 25, 2013, 12:01:44 PM
I assume smoking a joint is like enjoying a glass of wine?
:hmm:
lol, anyone who wants to try to smoke pot now does so now. You need to be pretty damn naive to think otherwise.
I suppose there is some miniscule percentage of the population that might want to try but are working in zero tolerance sorts of jobs. But are we really going to keep criminalizing a medical condition because of that?
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 12:07:07 PM
lol, anyone who wants to try to smoke pot now does so now. You need to be pretty damn naive to think otherwise.
I suppose there is some miniscule percentage of the population that might want to try but are working in zero tolerance sorts of jobs. But are we really going to keep criminalizing a medical condition because of that?
So you're agreeing with me - there are some people who might smoke if it was legal, but don't at present.
And since when is smoking marijuana a medical condition?
I can only hope your way of looking at this is becoming a significant minority in this country.
Quote from: Neil on April 24, 2013, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
Would it help more than it would hurt? After all, huge segments of the law enforcement industry depend on drug crime.
Then again, I suppose that ending Prohibition helped the recovery from the Great Depression, so it's worth a shot.
maybe transfer to parts of law-enforcement to customs. The drugs will still come in after all, and smuggling wills till be a crime...
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 25, 2013, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 24, 2013, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
Would it help more than it would hurt? After all, huge segments of the law enforcement industry depend on drug crime.
Then again, I suppose that ending Prohibition helped the recovery from the Great Depression, so it's worth a shot.
maybe transfer to parts of law-enforcement to customs. The drugs will still come in after all, and smuggling wills till be a crime...
The extent to which drugs come across borders illegally would be a function of the cost difference between the illegal drugs and the drugs which can be obtained legally. Given that the tax on such things would be high there would likely be some smuggling but not likely on the level there is today.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 12:40:57 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 25, 2013, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 24, 2013, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
Would it help more than it would hurt? After all, huge segments of the law enforcement industry depend on drug crime.
Then again, I suppose that ending Prohibition helped the recovery from the Great Depression, so it's worth a shot.
maybe transfer to parts of law-enforcement to customs. The drugs will still come in after all, and smuggling wills till be a crime...
The extent to which drugs come across borders illegally would be a function of the cost difference between the illegal drugs and the drugs which can be obtained legally. Given that the tax on such things would be high there would likely be some smuggling but not likely on the level there is today.
If you go back to the OP it seems as if Obama just wants to move towards a more treatment-focused approach. They're not legalizing it, and you won't be buying a joint atthe corner store.
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 12:43:41 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 12:40:57 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 25, 2013, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 24, 2013, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 24, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
Ending the War On Drugs would provide real immediate and lasting stimulus to the economy.
Would it help more than it would hurt? After all, huge segments of the law enforcement industry depend on drug crime.
Then again, I suppose that ending Prohibition helped the recovery from the Great Depression, so it's worth a shot.
maybe transfer to parts of law-enforcement to customs. The drugs will still come in after all, and smuggling wills till be a crime...
The extent to which drugs come across borders illegally would be a function of the cost difference between the illegal drugs and the drugs which can be obtained legally. Given that the tax on such things would be high there would likely be some smuggling but not likely on the level there is today.
If you go back to the OP it seems as if Obama just wants to move towards a more treatment-focused approach. They're not legalizing it, and you won't be buying a joint atthe corner store.
You missed the point where the discussion advanced and the quip was made about where all the law enforcement would go if it was legalized.
I know you are stick in the mud about this topic but try to keep up.
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 12:13:39 PM
And since when is smoking marijuana a medical condition?
Around the time that personal failings ceased to exist.
I would imagine C is pulling his opinion on this from the same place where he got his conviction that soccer and basketball would be the most popular sports in Canada if it weren't for an unholy conspiracy of CBC, TSN and the NHL.
Quote from: Neil on April 25, 2013, 01:04:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 12:13:39 PM
And since when is smoking marijuana a medical condition?
Around the time that personal failings ceased to exist.
I would imagine C is pulling his opinion on this from the same place where he got his conviction that soccer and basketball would be the most popular sports in Canada if it weren't for an unholy conspiracy of CBC, TSN and the NHL.
It figures that two guy from Edmonton with brain cells being killed off by the cold would agree on this issue.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 12:07:07 PM
lol, anyone who wants to try to smoke pot now does so now. You need to be pretty damn naive to think otherwise.
Not true. For example I wouldn't mind smoking a joint just to see how it is (though, that being said, I never smoked a cigarette either), and might end up liking it. Not that my productivity can fall more, what with posting on Languish and all. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2013, 01:52:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 12:07:07 PM
lol, anyone who wants to try to smoke pot now does so now. You need to be pretty damn naive to think otherwise.
Not true. For example I wouldn't mind smoking a joint just to see how it is (though, that being said, I never smoked a cigarette either), and might end up liking it.
:hmm:
Live a little, people.
Quote from: Phillip V on April 25, 2013, 12:01:44 PM
I have never smoked and do not intend to so as to not jeopardize my employment and security clearance.
However, if marijuana was legalized with usage causing no adverse effects, I would consider it. I assume smoking a joint is like enjoying a glass of wine?
Different.
Quote from: garbon on April 25, 2013, 01:56:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2013, 01:52:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 12:07:07 PM
lol, anyone who wants to try to smoke pot now does so now. You need to be pretty damn naive to think otherwise.
Not true. For example I wouldn't mind smoking a joint just to see how it is (though, that being said, I never smoked a cigarette either), and might end up liking it.
:hmm:
Live a little, people.
Well, I was closeted and pretty square until after law school and now I don't know where to get it. Plus I'm afraid I'd puke. I'd have a magic cookie though.
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 01:59:36 PM
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Nobody is shocked when I them them I never smoked pot. :unsure:
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 01:59:36 PM
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Nobody is shocked when I them them I never smoked pot. :unsure:
I have. But then again, I've never been one to let the law dictate what I want to do.
Quote from: Martinus on April 25, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
Well, I was closeted and pretty square until after law school and now I don't know where to get it. Plus I'm afraid I'd puke. I'd have a magic cookie though.
Lame.
Quote from: Neil on April 25, 2013, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 01:59:36 PM
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Nobody is shocked when I them them I never smoked pot. :unsure:
I have. But then again, I've never been one to let the law dictate what I want to do.
Ah, one of those "The Criminal Code is not a Holy Book" types.
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 01:59:36 PM
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Nobody is shocked when I them them I never smoked pot. :unsure:
Nobody care ones way or the other when I tell them I never smoked pot.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 25, 2013, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 01:59:36 PM
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Nobody is shocked when I them them I never smoked pot. :unsure:
Nobody care ones way or the other when I tell them I never smoked pot.
I guess I sort of come across as a pothead sometimes. Kind of dopey & whatnot.
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 11:57:48 AM
:huh:
It seems entirely logical that there is some number of people who would use drugs, but do not for the simple reason it is against the law.
Trying to estimate how many people that is would be quite difficult, but it's a number greater than zero.
Might be greater than zero, but also rather insignificant. I've lived all my life in a very permissive society and can't think of anyone that started taking drugs as an adult. People experiment in their teens and I don't know a single teenager who is greatly concerned about what the law might say about him drinking or snorting coke.
Quote from: Iormlund on April 25, 2013, 02:49:54 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 11:57:48 AM
:huh:
It seems entirely logical that there is some number of people who would use drugs, but do not for the simple reason it is against the law.
Trying to estimate how many people that is would be quite difficult, but it's a number greater than zero.
Might be greater than zero, but also rather insignificant. I've lived all my life in a very permissive society and can't think of anyone that started taking drugs as an adult. People experiment in their teens and I don't know a single teenager who is greatly concerned about what the law might say about him drinking or snorting coke.
I don't think that's a relevant situation though. You lived all your life in a permissive society, but you haven't seen the transition from restrictive to permissive, in terms of drug use.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 02:13:51 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 25, 2013, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 01:59:36 PM
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Nobody is shocked when I them them I never smoked pot. :unsure:
I have. But then again, I've never been one to let the law dictate what I want to do.
Ah, one of those "The Criminal Code is not a Holy Book" types.
I suppose. But then again, I've never given much thought to holy books either. I just do what feels right.
Quotelol, anyone who wants to try to smoke pot now does so now. You need to be pretty damn naive to think otherwise.
I smoked pot in college until I realized I wanted to eventually work in national security or the military, and I'd gladly smoke again were it not for certain security tests.
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 11:57:48 AM
:huh:
It seems entirely logical that there is some number of people who would use drugs, but do not for the simple reason it is against the law.
Trying to estimate how many people that is would be quite difficult, but it's a number greater than zero.
I don't think it's realistic that the productivity loss from people being able to enjoy Princess Mononoke a whole lot more is going to cancel out what would be gained by having a ton of non-violent offenders coming back in to gainful employment.
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 02:57:14 PM
I don't think that's a relevant situation though. You lived all your life in a permissive society, but you haven't seen the transition from restrictive to permissive, in terms of drug use.
You miss the point.
People experiment in their teens, when it
is illegal to take drugs, rather than as adults, when it would be tolerated. So not only the law fails to deter illegal use, but whether you allow adult drug use is largely irrelevant since the time of experimenting is long past.
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 02:39:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 25, 2013, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 25, 2013, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 01:59:36 PM
Everyone is always shocked when I tell them I never smoked pot :unsure:
Nobody is shocked when I them them I never smoked pot. :unsure:
Nobody care ones way or the other when I tell them I never smoked pot.
I guess I sort of come across as a pothead sometimes. Kind of dopey & whatnot.
It's all the ska and reggae music :contract:
Quote from: Iormlund on April 25, 2013, 03:32:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 02:57:14 PM
I don't think that's a relevant situation though. You lived all your life in a permissive society, but you haven't seen the transition from restrictive to permissive, in terms of drug use.
You miss the point.
People experiment in their teens, when it is illegal to take drugs, rather than as adults, when it would be tolerated. So not only the law fails to deter illegal use, but whether you allow adult drug use is largely irrelevant since the time of experimenting is long past.
I think you'd be very surprised.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 25, 2013, 03:45:24 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on April 25, 2013, 03:32:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 02:57:14 PM
I don't think that's a relevant situation though. You lived all your life in a permissive society, but you haven't seen the transition from restrictive to permissive, in terms of drug use.
You miss the point.
People experiment in their teens, when it is illegal to take drugs, rather than as adults, when it would be tolerated. So not only the law fails to deter illegal use, but whether you allow adult drug use is largely irrelevant since the time of experimenting is long past.
I think you'd be very surprised.
Indeed. As Marti already demonstrated in this thread - different people experiment at different times.
Quote from: garbon on April 25, 2013, 03:46:45 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 25, 2013, 03:45:24 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on April 25, 2013, 03:32:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 02:57:14 PM
I don't think that's a relevant situation though. You lived all your life in a permissive society, but you haven't seen the transition from restrictive to permissive, in terms of drug use.
You miss the point.
People experiment in their teens, when it is illegal to take drugs, rather than as adults, when it would be tolerated. So not only the law fails to deter illegal use, but whether you allow adult drug use is largely irrelevant since the time of experimenting is long past.
I think you'd be very surprised.
Indeed. As Marti already demonstrated in this thread - different people experiment at different times.
Marti is full of it. If he really wanted to experiment he lived how may minutes away from Amsterdam at one point?
Quote from: katmai on April 25, 2013, 03:43:42 PM
It's all the ska and reggae music :contract:
Legalize It! :smoke:
Yep never tried pot till I was 23.
Quote from: katmai on April 25, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
Yep never tried pot till I was 23.
The homeschool exception
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 03:53:14 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 25, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
Yep never tried pot till I was 23.
The homeschool exception
Nah I had been around it all time when growing up, so never had that allure. Same with drinking which I never did really til I was 21.
Quote from: katmai on April 25, 2013, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 03:53:14 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 25, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
Yep never tried pot till I was 23.
The homeschool exception
Nah I had been around it all time when growing up, so never had that allure. Same with drinking which I never did really til I was 21.
See BB, people can actually decide not to use even when it is freely available. :P
Effect on productivity doesn't seem to be a legit reason for a criminal prohibition. Alchohol has massive negative effects on productivity; the economic costs of alchohol consumption would have to counted in many billions of dollars. No one serious seems to think that a valid basis for re-imposing Prohibition.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 25, 2013, 06:14:25 PM
Effect on productivity doesn't seem to be a legit reason for a criminal prohibition. Alchohol has massive negative effects on productivity; the economic costs of alchohol consumption would have to counted in many billions of dollars. No one serious seems to think that a valid basis for re-imposing Prohibition.
Not necessarily. After all, status quo is always the easiest path to walk.
Quote from: katmai on April 25, 2013, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 03:53:14 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 25, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
Yep never tried pot till I was 23.
The homeschool exception
Nah I had been around it all time when growing up, so never had that allure. Same with drinking which I never did really til I was 21.
This is pretty much my experience, stuff about a lot, no big deal, so no big interest in using it. Couldn't tell you when I first had some doped, possible 20 and never really been a part of my life.
Similarly, I probably had a few drinks in pubs whilst under-age, but the whole 'illegal' thing wasn't an important vibe for me or my peer group, so getting utterly hammered was never really an aim. I guess over the years my consumption of booze has gradually declined to very little indeed.
Seems to be that kids who are constricted, too tightly monitored or controlled, are often the ones who find the allure of 'forbidden fruits' too much and a far proportion of them eventually go off the rails for a while/permanently.
I never tried it until I was 19 or 20 or round about there. Long after I started drinking. No way would I have done it as a teenager, back then I still believed the all drugs are the same, do weed and you'll look like a character in trainsporting in short order, etc.... stuff.
I don't think the amount of people avoiding it because it's illegal but would do it if it was legal is particularly high. When I lived in Amsterdam there were some people who had been users at home who took it up with relish there, some people who did a little at home who did a little there and some who had never done it who didn't suddenly start just because they could go to a shop rather than having to ask a friend.
It is very easily available if you want it and isn't regarded as an immoral crime.
I don't smoke pot myself, and I find most pot culture fairly unappealing. Still, legalizing it makes sense from my POV. In addition to the basic libertarian argument, which has some merit, I think removing a massive source of income for organized crime is very important. Transferring some of that income to the state in the form of taxation is good, even if it's as simple as the income tax generated from the now legal pot growing and distribution businesses. And, for the US, stopping the massive waste of human capital by incarcerating people for pot is a pretty strong argument as well.
Quote from: Jacob on April 25, 2013, 06:51:16 PM
I don't smoke pot myself, and I find most pot culture fairly unappealing. Still, legalizing it makes sense from my POV. In addition to the basic libertarian argument, which has some merit, I think removing a massive source of income for organized crime is very important. Transferring some of that income to the state in the form of taxation is good, even if it's as simple as the income tax generated from the now legal pot growing and distribution businesses. And, for the US, stopping the massive waste of human capital by incarcerating people for pot is a pretty strong argument as well.
I wouldn't disagree with a word of that.
In my experience the downsides to using too much dope are their own 'rewards' and as you say, pretty unappealing.
If I had to put a figure on it, I'd say towards 50% of the people I've known who've extensively smoked pot when on to develop some form of mental health issue. Now if this was a pre-existing problem, a genetic vulnerability to the side effects or an actual outcome from using too much, I don't know.
But it does annoy mean when people champion the health benefits of cannabis, without ever acknowledging the downsides, it's like they joined a little cult.
Quote from: mongers on April 25, 2013, 07:00:48 PM
If I had to put a figure on it, I'd say towards 50% of the people I've known who've extensively smoked pot when on to develop some form of mental health issue. Now if this was a pre-existing problem, a genetic vulnerability to the side effects or an actual outcome from using too much, I don't know.
The kids I knew that ended up spending time on an mental institution were already a bit off before taking drugs (and not just pot). The shit they did seems to have exacerbated those problems.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 25, 2013, 06:14:25 PM
Effect on productivity doesn't seem to be a legit reason for a criminal prohibition. Alchohol has massive negative effects on productivity; the economic costs of alchohol consumption would have to counted in many billions of dollars. No one serious seems to think that a valid basis for re-imposing Prohibition.
Didn't the soviets do something like that in 1980's? I think they restricted access to alcohol and there was a dramatic decrease in accidental death. Unfortunately booze sales were also a major source of income so that didn't help the revenue shortfalls they were already having.
I'd be fine with Federal law enforcement only focusing on organized criminal drug operations, large scale smuggling, large scale manufacturing etc of illegal drugs. The minor drug offenders who run afoul of Federal drug law I'm fine with us not dealing with those at the Federal level. I'd likewise say Federal grants to local governments could be changed so they emphasize more of the large offender arrests instead of piddling crimes.
But I wouldn't want us to totally stop the DEA in its tracks or anything for a simple reason. Drugs in general will never be legalized, period. So there will always be a black market, black markets give rise to dangerous, destabilizing, and violent criminal organizations that it is definitely in society's interests to fight--regardless of what product they're running. (Be it a protection racket, prostitution, drugs, etc.)
The reason drugs will never be fully legalized is in the nature of what drugs are and the implications of legalization. I could see legalization of basically "all plants." You know, if you want to grow poppy or hemp then yeah, I think we can legalize that some day and maybe even will.
But refined drugs, especially methamphetamine but also heroin and cocaine which are made from plants but processed down through a more sophisticated process than say opium or marijuana I don't see how we'd ever legalize them.
For one, meth, heroin, and cocaine you can all overdose on. Heroin I believe easiest of the three, and let's not forget morphine, and barbiturates which are also potentially easy to kill yourself with. What this basically means, is they are a dangerous product and it's unlikely the government would ever be willing to say "yeah you can just make this shit." Even if the government was willing to do that, the problem then is, who would make it? Product liability for a legalized heroin manufacturer could potentially be massive. Now, maybe we just treat it like we do alcohol, but the reality is I think it'd be hard to imagine a legal regime that wouldn't have to treat it like pharmaceuticals. Namely because unlike alcohol any legal manufacturer of these refined drugs would have the same motivations as criminals to adulterate and dilute them, and that means we can't say what people are taking and the inconsistent dosing causes legal problems. So I think the government would have to regulate the manufacturers the same way they regulate pharmaceutical companies. But even the smallest generic pharmaceutical company (I imagine the big boys will not want to touch this business) is unlikely to want all the bad press and legal troubles of being associated with heroin/meth manufacturing for recreational use.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 25, 2013, 06:14:25 PM
Effect on productivity doesn't seem to be a legit reason for a criminal prohibition.
Jeez people, I was kidding!
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 25, 2013, 09:28:46 PM
I'd be fine with Federal law enforcement only focusing on organized criminal drug operations, large scale smuggling, large scale manufacturing etc of illegal drugs. The minor drug offenders who run afoul of Federal drug law I'm fine with us not dealing with those at the Federal level. I'd likewise say Federal grants to local governments could be changed so they emphasize more of the large offender arrests instead of piddling crimes.
The trouble is where would you draw the line.
Sounds like it could be easy for big organised crime operations to establish some sort of franchise/sub-contracting system to make everything technically be smaller operations.
So if we legalize pot are there any other drugs that we are going to legalize?
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 03:57:28 PM
See BB, people can actually decide not to use even when it is freely available. :P
BB, the day after drugs are legalized:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DH.4711189274494520%26amp%3Bpid%3D15.1&hash=061468ab304ace2ebdddfa6029d0c7e887d6a466)
Never smoked pot, I was little scared off by how many people I know who do smoke pot claim almost with pride that their memory is shot. My brain is my biggest asset, I try not doing things that would damage it.
Languish is full of squares, film at 11.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 03:47:58 PM
Marti is full of it. If he really wanted to experiment he lived how may minutes away from Amsterdam at one point?
Should I have taken a 2-hour train to Amsterdam on my own, to try a new drug I don't know how I would have reacted to in some seedy coffee-shop completely alone, or should I have rather asked my colleagues at the law firm I was seconded to, to go with me?
Are you a fucking retard?
Quote from: Iormlund on April 25, 2013, 03:32:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 25, 2013, 02:57:14 PM
I don't think that's a relevant situation though. You lived all your life in a permissive society, but you haven't seen the transition from restrictive to permissive, in terms of drug use.
You miss the point.
People experiment in their teens, when it is illegal to take drugs, rather than as adults, when it would be tolerated. So not only the law fails to deter illegal use, but whether you allow adult drug use is largely irrelevant since the time of experimenting is long past.
I disagree. The fact that middle aged artists and similar type of people (i.e. those less concerned with criminal convictions having an impact on their professional lifes) continue to experiment with drugs proves you wrong. I am going to concede that teenagers are more likely to do things that could potentially destroy their future careers, but that's about it.
By the way, I am for drug legalization for this very reason - I don't think people should be afraid to use drugs for recreational purposes when they want to, but I recognize criminalization is a powerful deterrent for otherwise law-abiding adults.
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2013, 05:11:26 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 03:47:58 PM
Marti is full of it. If he really wanted to experiment he lived how may minutes away from Amsterdam at one point?
Should I have taken a 2-hour train to Amsterdam on my own, to try a new drug I don't know how I would have reacted to in some seedy coffee-shop completely alone, or should I have rather asked my colleagues at the law firm I was seconded to, to go with me?
Are you a fucking retard?
We could have gone there during the Languish meet and teach you right. :smoke:
By the way, the fact that I barely drank any alcohol at all before I was 18, and now I'm borderline alcoholic (mostly joking but I like drinking), also proves that people's greatest substance (ab)use intensity does not have to happen during their teenage years.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 01:35:25 PM
It figures that two guy from Edmonton with brain cells being killed off by the cold would agree on this issue.
Hey, aren't you an avid skier? :hmm:
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2013, 03:21:27 AM
Never smoked pot, I was little scared off by how many people I know who do smoke pot claim almost with pride that their memory is shot. My brain is my biggest asset, I try not doing things that would damage it.
I only smoked pot very occasionally in my youth, but I do not believe it is associated with permanent loss of long or short-term memory. Instead, while directly under the effects of marijuana and from the scientific literature, 1-2 days afterward, a poorly understood biochemical process causes degradation of short-term memory. It goes away completely after a day or two, and at least in my experience has never been noticeable more than 12-18 hours later so it must be mild after that.
I think a lot of former potheads just think it's funny to blame ordinary human forgetfulness on the fact they used to be potheads. And members of "pot culture" who generally get baked at least once a day probably do have persistent memory problems because they are never going more than 1-2 days without smoking.
FWIW I've never understood why people enjoy smoking it. I never got the physical pleasure/euphoria sensation that alcohol produces and many times when I was at parties or something smoking just made me very, very sleepy. I guess the mild cognitive changes it causes appeal to people whose idea of fun is to lay on the floor listening to music or watching cartoons...and in my partying days that was not at all what I considered a good time. I liked to be out on the town or at big house parties doing
something, and being baked just isn't compatible with that.
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2013, 03:21:27 AM
Never smoked pot, I was little scared off by how many people I know who do smoke pot claim almost with pride that their memory is shot. My brain is my biggest asset, I try not doing things that would damage it.
I've always considered my brain my biggest liability, though I don't think recreational disorientation will help that.
Quote from: Jacob on April 25, 2013, 06:51:16 PM
I don't smoke pot myself, and I find most pot culture fairly unappealing. Still, legalizing it makes sense from my POV. In addition to the basic libertarian argument, which has some merit, I think removing a massive source of income for organized crime is very important. Transferring some of that income to the state in the form of taxation is good, even if it's as simple as the income tax generated from the now legal pot growing and distribution businesses. And, for the US, stopping the massive waste of human capital by incarcerating people for pot is a pretty strong argument as well.
That's pretty much my own point of view also. I don't use pot, never have except to try it out a couple of times so I'm not a supporter of it but have little issue about it. Also, too many people have been given felony records for personal use of pot that haunts them in job seeking and such for decades after.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 07:00:57 AM
FWIW I've never understood why people enjoy smoking it. I never got the physical pleasure/euphoria sensation that alcohol produces and many times when I was at parties or something smoking just made me very, very sleepy. I guess the mild cognitive changes it causes appeal to people whose idea of fun is to lay on the floor listening to music or watching cartoons...and in my partying days that was not at all what I considered a good time. I liked to be out on the town or at big house parties doing something, and being baked just isn't compatible with that.
One doesn't need to have a rager every night. ;)
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2013, 04:59:19 AM
Languish is full of squares, film at 11.
What are we, 15? :lol:
Quote from: Maximus on April 26, 2013, 09:05:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2013, 04:59:19 AM
Languish is full of squares, film at 11.
What are we, 15? :lol:
Some people here seem to have been born already in their 40s.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 26, 2013, 06:04:59 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 01:35:25 PM
It figures that two guy from Edmonton with brain cells being killed off by the cold would agree on this issue.
Hey, aren't you an avid skier? :hmm:
Yes, and as noted many times I live where there is no snow and mild temperatures. As Neil and BB demonstrate repeatedly in this thread, long term exposure to cold temperatures can have devestating impacts on one's cognitive abilities.
Quote from: Martinus on April 26, 2013, 05:11:26 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 25, 2013, 03:47:58 PM
Marti is full of it. If he really wanted to experiment he lived how may minutes away from Amsterdam at one point?
Should I have taken a 2-hour train to Amsterdam on my own, to try a new drug
like I said, you are full of shit when you say that you want to try it... You could have and I bet you could still easily do so.
I have no idea where you'd buy marijuana if you weren't acquainted with users or dealers.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 12:05:50 PM
I have no idea where you'd buy marijuana if you weren't acquainted with users or dealers.
kijiji
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 12:05:50 PM
I have no idea where you'd buy marijuana if you weren't acquainted with users or dealers.
Its been said before and its apt to say it again. It is revealing just how sheltered some Languishites are. I dont know any dealers. I know one person for sure who uses. I have no idea how he gets his stuff. But I could walk out my office and get some weed if I wanted it with no trouble at all. All I would have to do is walk until I smelled someone smoking it, which happens several times on my afternoon walks out of the office, and ask that person if I can buy some from him or if he knows where I can get it.
For a guy who seems to know a lot you seem to be pretty naive when it comes to this.
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2013, 09:34:38 AM
Quote from: Maximus on April 26, 2013, 09:05:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on April 26, 2013, 04:59:19 AM
Languish is full of squares, film at 11.
What are we, 15? :lol:
Some people here seem to have been born already in their 40s.
It could also be due to differences between Southern European culture and Anglo-Saxon culture. The former values hedonism, while the latter values having a civilized society that functions well.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 26, 2013, 12:30:40 PM
Its been said before and its apt to say it again. It is revealing just how sheltered some Languishites are. I dont know any dealers. I know one person for sure who uses. I have no idea how he gets his stuff. But I could walk out my office and get some weed if I wanted it with no trouble at all. All I would have to do is walk until I smelled someone smoking it, which happens several times on my afternoon walks out of the office, and ask that person if I can buy some from him or if he knows where I can get it.
For a guy who seems to know a lot you seem to be pretty naive when it comes to this.
Yeah very bizarre though I guess I could see it being harder in suburbs - though not really as one generally knows someone who uses or knows someone who uses that could put one in touch with the right people.
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
It could also be due to differences between Southern European culture and Anglo-Saxon culture. The former values hedonism, while the latter values having a civilized society that functions well.
I've seen way too many Brits on vacation to swallow that one.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 26, 2013, 12:30:40 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 12:05:50 PM
I have no idea where you'd buy marijuana if you weren't acquainted with users or dealers.
Its been said before and its apt to say it again. It is revealing just how sheltered some Languishites are. I dont know any dealers. I know one person for sure who uses. I have no idea how he gets his stuff. But I could walk out my office and get some weed if I wanted it with no trouble at all. All I would have to do is walk until I smelled someone smoking it, which happens several times on my afternoon walks out of the office, and ask that person if I can buy some from him or if he knows where I can get it.
For a guy who seems to know a lot you seem to be pretty naive when it comes to this.
I predict that if you specifically walked out of your office right now and approached the first person you found who was smoking up if you could buy some pot off of him you'd get a stuttered "uh, I don't know what you're talking about man".
You're don't look right, you're not in the right social group. You look like a narc.
Not that you couldn't find some if you tried. I'm pretty sure GF is on the right track.
I of course know many, many, many people who both use and sell drugs. Pot, crack, meth, X, GHB, ketamine, pills, mushrooms - you name it I probably know a guy. -_-
Quote from: Iormlund on April 26, 2013, 12:54:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
It could also be due to differences between Southern European culture and Anglo-Saxon culture. The former values hedonism, while the latter values having a civilized society that functions well.
I've seen way too many Brits on vacation to swallow that one.
The ones you see are the lazy ones who do go on vacations.
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2013, 12:56:23 PM
You're don't look right, you're not in the right social group.
The right social group? Seriously? We're not talking meth or crack users here ...
QuoteYou look like a narc.
Yeah, because undercover cops dress like successful lawyers ...
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
It could also be due to differences between Southern European culture and Anglo-Saxon culture. The former values hedonism, while the latter values having a civilized society that functions well.
I was referring to using the term "square" as a pejorative. That's so teenage rebel without a cause.
Quote from: Iormlund on April 26, 2013, 01:00:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2013, 12:56:23 PM
You're don't look right, you're not in the right social group.
The right social group? Seriously? We're not talking meth or crack users here ...
QuoteYou look like a narc.
Yeah, because undercover cops dress like successful lawyers ...
I'm quite sure that some of CC's friends and co-workers smoke pot. But they're not the ones who do it on the street.
CC looks like what a pothead might think an "undercover cop" looks like.
Quote from: Iormlund on April 26, 2013, 12:54:24 PM
I've seen way too many Brits on vacation to swallow that one.
:D
Basic rule I had when backpacking in Southern Europe. If I saw a large group of Brits or Germans I would go the other way.
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2013, 12:56:23 PM
You're don't look right, you're not in the right social group. You look like a narc.
Since low level street use isnt prosecuted anymore I doubt it but you might be right. So being the innovative fellow I am, I would get my secretary to do it. :D
Point is, pot is not hard to find at all.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 26, 2013, 01:13:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2013, 12:56:23 PM
You're don't look right, you're not in the right social group. You look like a narc.
Since low level street use isnt prosecuted anymore I doubt it but you might be right. So being the innovative fellow I am, I would get my secretary to do it. :D
Point is, pot is not hard to find at all.
I wouldn't say that it isn't prosecuted at all. Cops will arrest someone for simple possession in order to determine if the fellow is dealing, or has weapons, or what not. It's just that more often than not if there is no other charge, the cops will just take the pot away and send you home.
It isn't as easy as you suggest (what you suggested was really, really easy) but I'm definitely not saying it is hard to find.
I fail at drug acquisition :(
Good thing I dont use it. :D
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 07:00:57 AM
FWIW I've never understood why people enjoy smoking it. I never got the physical pleasure/euphoria sensation that alcohol produces and many times when I was at parties or something smoking just made me very, very sleepy. I guess the mild cognitive changes it causes appeal to people whose idea of fun is to lay on the floor listening to music or watching cartoons...and in my partying days that was not at all what I considered a good time. I liked to be out on the town or at big house parties doing something, and being baked just isn't compatible with that.
It's not a social drug like alcohol. It's far better used when enjoying a film or music.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 26, 2013, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 07:00:57 AM
FWIW I've never understood why people enjoy smoking it. I never got the physical pleasure/euphoria sensation that alcohol produces and many times when I was at parties or something smoking just made me very, very sleepy. I guess the mild cognitive changes it causes appeal to people whose idea of fun is to lay on the floor listening to music or watching cartoons...and in my partying days that was not at all what I considered a good time. I liked to be out on the town or at big house parties doing something, and being baked just isn't compatible with that.
It's not a social drug like alcohol. It's far better used when enjoying a film or music.
All of my use has been in social settings.
Yeah, same here. In fact I've never actually acquired any. On rare occasions I'd take a hit as it went by and that's it.
In the movies if you want to buy ganja you ask the mailroom guy.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 26, 2013, 02:28:57 PM
In the movies if you want to buy ganja you ask the mailroom guy.
IT guys are the new Mailroom guys and it turns out they are not the same at all.
Our IT guy makes a great Cannabis lotion to help his dad when passing kidney stones. Works like a charm on backache, too.
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2013, 01:52:42 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 26, 2013, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 07:00:57 AM
FWIW I've never understood why people enjoy smoking it. I never got the physical pleasure/euphoria sensation that alcohol produces and many times when I was at parties or something smoking just made me very, very sleepy. I guess the mild cognitive changes it causes appeal to people whose idea of fun is to lay on the floor listening to music or watching cartoons...and in my partying days that was not at all what I considered a good time. I liked to be out on the town or at big house parties doing something, and being baked just isn't compatible with that.
It's not a social drug like alcohol. It's far better used when enjoying a film or music.
All of my use has been in social settings.
I should have said party settings. I've never smoked by myself.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 26, 2013, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2013, 01:52:42 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 26, 2013, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 07:00:57 AM
FWIW I've never understood why people enjoy smoking it. I never got the physical pleasure/euphoria sensation that alcohol produces and many times when I was at parties or something smoking just made me very, very sleepy. I guess the mild cognitive changes it causes appeal to people whose idea of fun is to lay on the floor listening to music or watching cartoons...and in my partying days that was not at all what I considered a good time. I liked to be out on the town or at big house parties doing something, and being baked just isn't compatible with that.
It's not a social drug like alcohol. It's far better used when enjoying a film or music.
All of my use has been in social settings.
I should have said party settings. I've never smoked by myself.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there again - though not exclusively all of my use. :D
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 26, 2013, 12:30:40 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 26, 2013, 12:05:50 PM
I have no idea where you'd buy marijuana if you weren't acquainted with users or dealers.
Its been said before and its apt to say it again. It is revealing just how sheltered some Languishites are. I dont know any dealers. I know one person for sure who uses. I have no idea how he gets his stuff. But I could walk out my office and get some weed if I wanted it with no trouble at all. All I would have to do is walk until I smelled someone smoking it, which happens several times on my afternoon walks out of the office, and ask that person if I can buy some from him or if he knows where I can get it.
For a guy who seems to know a lot you seem to be pretty naive when it comes to this.
In my hometown, I would have had no trouble finding some pot if I had wanted to buy any. Everybody pretty much knows where the potheads hung out. Here, or anywhere else outside my hometown, I'd have no idea, but I could probably ask around. I'd be hesitant to actually try to make a purchase, though. In my hometown, not only did I know where the potheads hung out, but I knew which of those hangouts were also frequented by people dealing harder drugs. A plain ol' pothead would just act like he didn't know what I was talking about and refuse to sell me anything if he thought, as BB said of CC, I look like a narc. A guy who also deals crack or meth or somesuch might just shoot me.
I wouldn't have a clue where to buy pot.
If I wanted pot I'd go to a dispensary.
When I was younger, people would smoke pot outside at parties. I could smoke with them. If I wanted to buy pot, I knew people that smoked and would either ask to buy from them or ask them where I could buy some. But I never actually did, as I said I was not a big fan of it so never actively sought it out or bought it. But I would throw in money sometimes if I was partaking (usually not, though.)
I don't know where you guys live, but I work in the suburbs of D.C., I live in Fredericksburg. I don't regularly walk by anyplace that smells of weed, in fact I don't believe I've walked past a place that smells of weed in years. What exactly would my strategy be? Drive to a head shop and ask the owner if he's holding? I'm an upper middle class white guy who lives on former farm land out by himself with few neighbors around near a commuter town an hour away from a major city. Most of my friends and coworkers are professionals or work in government jobs where if they do smoke they'd try very hard to keep it secret. My daily life involves me getting up, driving up I-95 to work (where I park in a huge parking lot and go into a government office far removed from any surrounding buildings) and then drive home. Sometimes we'll go into the city for various things, but the parts of the city we walk around in you don't smell pot smoke wafting through the air.
Quote from: dps on April 26, 2013, 07:56:03 PMA guy who also deals crack or meth or somesuch might just shoot me.
See, that's the kind of thing that doesn't happen over here.
I got really baked last night.
Quote from: Iormlund on April 27, 2013, 12:37:56 PM
Quote from: dps on April 26, 2013, 07:56:03 PMA guy who also deals crack or meth or somesuch might just shoot me.
See, that's the kind of thing that doesn't happen over here.
Why, Spaniard thugs are just too enlightened and baked to shoot straight?
Unemployed.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 27, 2013, 12:42:59 PM
I got really baked last night.
I am very disappointed in you young man. :mad:
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 27, 2013, 10:34:55 AM
When I was younger, people would smoke pot outside at parties. I could smoke with them. If I wanted to buy pot, I knew people that smoked and would either ask to buy from them or ask them where I could buy some. But I never actually did, as I said I was not a big fan of it so never actively sought it out or bought it. But I would throw in money sometimes if I was partaking (usually not, though.)
I don't know where you guys live, but I work in the suburbs of D.C., I live in Fredericksburg. I don't regularly walk by anyplace that smells of weed, in fact I don't believe I've walked past a place that smells of weed in years. What exactly would my strategy be? Drive to a head shop and ask the owner if he's holding? I'm an upper middle class white guy who lives on former farm land out by himself with few neighbors around near a commuter town an hour away from a major city. Most of my friends and coworkers are professionals or work in government jobs where if they do smoke they'd try very hard to keep it secret. My daily life involves me getting up, driving up I-95 to work (where I park in a huge parking lot and go into a government office far removed from any surrounding buildings) and then drive home. Sometimes we'll go into the city for various things, but the parts of the city we walk around in you don't smell pot smoke wafting through the air.
I smell weed all the time in New York. Hell I can just walk into the hall of my building and smell it.
I work at a University. I can get a contact high by walking into the Philosophy Department.