Could anyone explain to me how this has any factual basis whatsoever or is this just a case of stupid Republicans being stupid?
No
to add, IMO it's a lead in for GOP political shenanigans.
Sounds like it's a stick with which to beat on Obama.
I wonder if that was a false flag. The speculations about Craft International people being at the finish line are at least entertaining.
They don't seem friendly to me.
Quote from: 11B4V on April 21, 2013, 03:12:51 AM
to add, IMO it's a lead in for GOP political shenanigans.
For some reason, they don't trust the civilian criminal justice system with this case. Go fig.
Not just no, it's "LOL no"
No factual basis whatsoever.
It's bullshit. You can tell it's bullshit, because Lindsey Graham and John McCain think it's a good idea.
Quote from: syk on April 21, 2013, 03:46:29 AM
I wonder if that was a false flag. The speculations about Craft International people being at the finish line are at least entertaining.
Some of the conspiracy theories have been pretty funny. My fave--other than Obama covering up for Saudis, but that's a bit boring because it's so boilerplate--are the ones about the Navy SEALs being spotted at the marathon wearing backpacks. Because, you know, that's what SEALs do before they blow shit up. They wear backpacks.
A lot of the crazies are on to a new conspiracy theory now. See, West Fertilizer was suing Monsanto. As all good conspiracy theorists know Monsanto controls Obama as a puppet, so on Monsanto's bidding Obama ordered a drone strike on the West Fertilizer factory. So now West Fertilizer will most likely be sued into bankruptcy over safety violations or something when the real cause for the explosion was Hellfire missiles. This then disrupts West's lawsuit against Monsanto.
Obama is crazier than I thought.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2013, 08:47:18 AM
A lot of the crazies are on to a new conspiracy theory now. See, West Fertilizer was suing Monsanto. As all good conspiracy theorists know Monsanto controls Obama as a puppet, so on Monsanto's bidding Obama ordered a drone strike on the West Fertilizer factory. So now West Fertilizer will most likely be sued into bankruptcy over safety violations or something when the real cause for the explosion was Hellfire missiles. This then disrupts West's lawsuit against Monsanto.
Damn, that's pretty awesome. :cool:
I wonder what the 'authors' could do with that 'ingenious thinking' if they applied it to problems in their own life ? :unsure:
It was an inside job. I mean we know arranging this sort of thing is standard practice for the US, they have all the right connections left over from September 11th; which as we all know they arranged because they wanted public support for a war.
By bombing the Boston marathon they're hoping to gain public support for cut backs on running public events.
THE PRICE OF AUSTERITY.
You know what would be funny? If the case against him was thrown out of court 'cause he wasn't Mirandized, so they just let him go--by turning him loose in downtown Boston after giving the public plenty of notice about when and where he was going to be released.
Quote from: dps on April 21, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
You know what would be funny? If the case against him was thrown out of court 'cause he wasn't Mirandized, so they just let him go--by turning him loose in downtown Boston after giving the public plenty of notice about when and where he was going to be released.
That would only succeed if people of Boston were bloodthirsty... oh wait. :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on April 21, 2013, 11:36:51 AM
Quote from: dps on April 21, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
You know what would be funny? If the case against him was thrown out of court 'cause he wasn't Mirandized, so they just let him go--by turning him loose in downtown Boston after giving the public plenty of notice about when and where he was going to be released.
That would only succeed if people of Boston were bloodthirsty... oh wait. :hmm:
Just to make sure, they could have him dressed in Yankees gear.
Quote from: dps on April 21, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
You know what would be funny? If the case against him was thrown out of court 'cause he wasn't Mirandized, so they just let him go--by turning him loose in downtown Boston after giving the public plenty of notice about when and where he was going to be released.
Only if they bus him into West Roxbury.
I disagree with classifying them as such at this point, but is this deserving of its own thread? :huh:
Quote from: derspiess on April 21, 2013, 12:20:07 PM
I disagree with classifying them as such at this point, but is this deserving of its own thread? :huh:
There's the possibility that it'll stop Timmay from starting 3 more threads on it.
Like I said, a possibility.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2013, 12:21:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 21, 2013, 12:20:07 PM
I disagree with classifying them as such at this point, but is this deserving of its own thread? :huh:
There's the possibility that it'll stop Timmay from starting 3 more threads on it.
Like I said, a possibility.
I wouldn't care to put any money on it, though.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2013, 08:47:18 AM
A lot of the crazies are on to a new conspiracy theory now. See, West Fertilizer was suing Monsanto. As all good conspiracy theorists know Monsanto controls Obama as a puppet, so on Monsanto's bidding Obama ordered a drone strike on the West Fertilizer factory. So now West Fertilizer will most likely be sued into bankruptcy over safety violations or something when the real cause for the explosion was Hellfire missiles. This then disrupts West's lawsuit against Monsanto.
Well, they needed something to replace all the Halliburton conspiracies.
Quote from: Strix on April 21, 2013, 12:40:09 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2013, 08:47:18 AM
A lot of the crazies are on to a new conspiracy theory now. See, West Fertilizer was suing Monsanto. As all good conspiracy theorists know Monsanto controls Obama as a puppet, so on Monsanto's bidding Obama ordered a drone strike on the West Fertilizer factory. So now West Fertilizer will most likely be sued into bankruptcy over safety violations or something when the real cause for the explosion was Hellfire missiles. This then disrupts West's lawsuit against Monsanto.
Well, they needed something to replace all the Halliburton conspiracies.
$39.5 billion made in Iraq? :lol:
And if the Justice Department goes after you for kickbacks, is it really a conspiracy?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2013, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 21, 2013, 12:40:09 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 21, 2013, 08:47:18 AM
A lot of the crazies are on to a new conspiracy theory now. See, West Fertilizer was suing Monsanto. As all good conspiracy theorists know Monsanto controls Obama as a puppet, so on Monsanto's bidding Obama ordered a drone strike on the West Fertilizer factory. So now West Fertilizer will most likely be sued into bankruptcy over safety violations or something when the real cause for the explosion was Hellfire missiles. This then disrupts West's lawsuit against Monsanto.
Well, they needed something to replace all the Halliburton conspiracies.
$39.5 billion made in Iraq? :lol:
And if the Justice Department goes after you for kickbacks, is it really a conspiracy?
No one is saying they didn't make a profit. It's how they went about it allegedly which makes for bat shit crazy conspiracies.
Six months ago you were telling us how Obama orchestrated the fall of David Petreus to save Hillary Clinton.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2013, 01:44:05 PM
Six months ago you were telling us how Obama orchestrated the fall of David Petreus to save Hillary Clinton.
I said Halliburton was involved?
No, you were going off on conspiracy theories of your own.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2013, 02:08:33 PM
No, you were going off on conspiracy theories of your own.
And that has what exactly to do with Monsanto, Halliburton, or the Boston Bombing? I am trying to find the connection you are drawing between murder/destruction conspiracies and the cover up over Benghazi.
Maybe someday Raz will get over Benghazi :(
No, I don't think I'll ever get over Macho Grande.
Quote from: Strix on April 21, 2013, 02:55:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2013, 02:08:33 PM
No, you were going off on conspiracy theories of your own.
And that has what exactly to do with Monsanto, Halliburton, or the Boston Bombing? I am trying to find the connection you are drawing between murder/destruction conspiracies and the cover up over Benghazi.
Cause they are both murder/destruction conspiracies. :mellow: Are you really this stupid, or is it an act?
Quote from: The Brain on April 21, 2013, 03:18:42 PM
No, I don't think I'll ever get over Macho Grande.
:lol:
Quote from: dps on April 21, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
You know what would be funny? If the case against him was thrown out of court 'cause he wasn't Mirandized, so they just let him go--by turning him loose in downtown Boston after giving the public plenty of notice about when and where he was going to be released.
Wouldn't it just make evidence they gained from interviewing him inadmissible?
Oh, and civil libertarians :bleeding: :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 21, 2013, 07:18:46 PM
Quote from: dps on April 21, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
You know what would be funny? If the case against him was thrown out of court 'cause he wasn't Mirandized, so they just let him go--by turning him loose in downtown Boston after giving the public plenty of notice about when and where he was going to be released.
Wouldn't it just make evidence they gained from interviewing him inadmissible?
Oh, and civil libertarians :bleeding: :P
stupid, wouldn't it be better to follow the forms and give him his miranda rights, he's watched tv so he knows them anyways and then abuse the intention of the law screwing him over legally in the way experienced cops and lawyers can to the max?
Then again, we did get this kind of spiteful petty abuse with Breivik as well. The main difference? Judges here are civil servants and employees of the justice department and easily bullied.
Well, the fucker's been shot straight through the throat, so he's not talking anyway.
Quote from: Viking on April 21, 2013, 07:39:09 PMstupid, wouldn't it be better to follow the forms and give him his miranda rights, he's watched tv so he knows them anyways and then abuse the intention of the law screwing him over legally in the way experienced cops and lawyers can to the max?
As CdM says he's not talking anyway and as you say the contexts different now. Anyone who's seen a cop procedural knows about the Miranda warning, which is great.
But in general I think forms should be flexible as long as principles are upheld - he still has those rights, he's not being mistreated and so on - especially in a case, like this, where I think there is a legitimate public safety issue. You capture a suspected terrorist, more or less red handed, the first priority shouldn't be building the case against them but discovering if there's another bomb and where (assuming there's some evidence there could be). It's like walking into an armed robbery and you capture one of the robbers, police should be able to ask where the other suspect is/if they're armed etc before they read the rights.
Obviously, as I say, that doesn't mean they should be mistreated or anything like that.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 21, 2013, 07:50:41 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 21, 2013, 07:39:09 PMstupid, wouldn't it be better to follow the forms and give him his miranda rights, he's watched tv so he knows them anyways and then abuse the intention of the law screwing him over legally in the way experienced cops and lawyers can to the max?
As CdM says he's not talking anyway and as you say the contexts different now. Anyone who's seen a cop procedural knows about the Miranda warning, which is great.
But in general I think forms should be flexible as long as principles are upheld - he still has those rights, he's not being mistreated and so on - especially in a case, like this, where I think there is a legitimate public safety issue. You capture a suspected terrorist, more or less red handed, the first priority shouldn't be building the case against them but discovering if there's another bomb and where (assuming there's some evidence there could be). It's like walking into an armed robbery and you capture one of the robbers, police should be able to ask where the other suspect is/if they're armed etc before they read the rights.
Obviously, as I say, that doesn't mean they should be mistreated or anything like that.
I hate to bring this up... but that argument also works on torture and the ticking bomb scenario.
Well it doesn't. Torture's an issue of principle, not form. I don't agree with stripping him of his rights to a lawyer, or right to silence. But I think in a situation where there could be a ticking bomb, or another bomber/robber, the police should be able to ask about that before following form and telling someone about their rights. Which doesn't mean they don't have those rights and ultimately may not help, but reciting the rights certainly won't and in that context is wasting time.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 21, 2013, 08:03:54 PM
But I think in a situation where there could be a ticking bomb, or another bomber/robber, the police should be able to ask about that before following form and telling someone about their rights. Which doesn't mean they don't have those rights and ultimately may not help, but reciting the rights certainly won't and in that context is wasting time.
I believe it was determined with relative certainty that particular protocol wasn't necessary in this case.
During the manhunt, the suspects tossed what explosive devices they had in the middle of the chase, their vehicle was recovered, their apartment had been raided and secured in the meantime, and the remaining suspect was not in a position to pose any additional threat once he was flashbang spammed to hell and back and taken into custody.
Reading his rights takes only time and effort, and does not impede the investigation in any way. The "public safety exemption" is for substantially narrower time frames than this, when time is truly of the essence, e.g., a bomb threat is made, the threatening suspect apprehended before the bomb is located, etc.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 21, 2013, 08:15:43 PM
During the manhunt, the suspects tossed what explosive devices they had in the middle of the chase, their vehicle was recovered, their apartment had been raided and secured in the meantime, and the remaining suspect was not in a position to pose any additional threat once he was flashbang spammed to hell and back and taken into custody.
Yeah. I wasn't following the chase too closely but I'd thought there were suspicions of other devices. My initial thought on this was how the guy who looked unconscious and half dead on the floor could have been read his rights or asked questions? :lol:
A question for you and other Americans, how much of the Miranda does a suspect need to be able to understand? Is it just a formal thing, or do they have to be, you know, conscious and reasonably coherent?
QuoteReading his rights takes only time and effort, and does not impede the investigation in any way. The "public safety exemption" is for substantially narrower time frames than this, when time is truly of the essence, e.g., a bomb threat is made, the threatening suspect apprehended before the bomb is located, etc.
I'd agree with all of that.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 21, 2013, 08:34:30 PM
A question for you and other Americans, how much of the Miranda does a suspect need to be able to understand? Is it just a formal thing, or do they have to be, you know, conscious and reasonably coherent?
He has to be able to acknowledge it. That's why you ask him at the end if he understands.
What about language difficulties?
My Miranda card had a flip side en Español :smarty:
But translation services are easy enough to get through dispatch via the court system.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 21, 2013, 08:37:13 PM
What about language difficulties?
He can't confess if you don't understand him.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2013, 03:19:21 PM
Cause they are both murder/destruction conspiracies. :mellow: Are you really this stupid, or is it an act?
You are that stupid. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2013, 08:48:27 PM
He can't confess if you don't understand him.
There have been quite a few cases in which someone was coherent enough in English to confess, but held to be not fluent enough to understand/waive his Miranda warnings.
Quote from: Strix on April 22, 2013, 10:12:24 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2013, 03:19:21 PM
Cause they are both murder/destruction conspiracies. :mellow: Are you really this stupid, or is it an act?
You are that stupid. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.
Yes, a conspiracy you believe in and one you don't. I imagine you do see a difference, but as a person not prone to conspiracies I do not.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 22, 2013, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Strix on April 22, 2013, 10:12:24 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 21, 2013, 03:19:21 PM
Cause they are both murder/destruction conspiracies. :mellow: Are you really this stupid, or is it an act?
You are that stupid. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.
Yes, a conspiracy you believe in and one you don't. I imagine you do see a difference, but as a person not prone to conspiracies I do not.
A conspiracy where people are killed to further the conspiracy and a political cover up are two very different things. You are just to stupid to understand that.