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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM

Title: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2013, 01:46:52 AM
Are you telling me that globalized tech and economy is loosening the grip of traditional powers, and force them toward greater cooperation and less strict rules?



Plus, that 32 trillion is SOMEWHERE. It is not under pillows. It is in the banks of less fortunate states, which should be a socialist's wet dream I guess.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: DGuller on April 10, 2013, 01:57:50 AM
I've always been surprised at how tolerant Western governments have been of fake countries that only exist to hide vast wealth.  Then again, the governments are run by the people hiding that wealth, or people paid off in some way by the people hiding that wealth, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2013, 02:09:12 AM
pretty much
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Razgovory on April 10, 2013, 02:22:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 10, 2013, 01:46:52 AM
Are you telling me that globalized tech and economy is loosening the grip of traditional powers, and force them toward greater cooperation and less strict rules?



Plus, that 32 trillion is SOMEWHERE. It is not under pillows. It is in the banks of less fortunate states, which should be a socialist's wet dream I guess.

What?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2013, 02:23:34 AM
It's okay, Raz.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Razgovory on April 10, 2013, 02:29:52 AM
I'm glad you recognize your post was non-nonsensical.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 05:07:52 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 10, 2013, 01:46:52 AM
Are you telling me that globalized tech and economy is loosening the grip of traditional powers, and force them toward greater cooperation and less strict rules?



Plus, that 32 trillion is SOMEWHERE. It is not under pillows. It is in the banks of less fortunate states, which should be a socialist's wet dream I guess.

This is drivel.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Razgovory on April 10, 2013, 05:53:49 AM
You would think that doing stuff like this would undermine capitalism.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 06:08:38 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 10, 2013, 05:53:49 AM
You would think that doing stuff like this would undermine capitalism.

I just don't see how what he seems to be preaching has any reasonable end-game. What is his goal? That people pay no taxes and there is no such thing as public spending? The idiocy of the conclusions that naturally follow from his drivel is mind boggling.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Josquius on April 10, 2013, 06:13:41 AM
Quote
Plus, that 32 trillion is SOMEWHERE. It is not under pillows. It is in the banks of less fortunate states, which should be a socialist's wet dream I guess.
Less fortunate states?
....
err....
Tax havens tend to be rather wealthy places to put it mildly...
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: HVC on April 10, 2013, 06:19:16 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2013, 06:13:41 AM
Quote
Plus, that 32 trillion is SOMEWHERE. It is not under pillows. It is in the banks of less fortunate states, which should be a socialist's wet dream I guess.
Less fortunate states?
....
err....
Tax havens tend to be rather wealthy places to put it mildly...
for the bankers, not so much the citiazens. Not all shelters are make coocoo clocks and cheese.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 06:34:33 AM
Still, it's a pretty idiotic argument, even for a beet-eating goat-herder.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2013, 06:37:49 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 10, 2013, 05:53:49 AM
You would think that doing stuff like this would undermine capitalism.

How does it undermine capitalism? Stuff like this is what capitalism's all about.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 07:06:20 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2013, 06:37:49 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 10, 2013, 05:53:49 AM
You would think that doing stuff like this would undermine capitalism.

How does it undermine capitalism? Stuff like this is what capitalism's all about.

Are you saying that capitalism is theft?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2013, 07:08:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 07:06:20 AM
Are you saying that capitalism is theft?

No, I'm saying capitalism is the successful accumulation of wealth without consequence or accountability.

Whether or not it's theft is incidental.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Neil on April 10, 2013, 07:38:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 06:34:33 AM
Still, it's a pretty idiotic argument, even for a beet-eating goat-herder.
It's funny watching you act like you're better than he is.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Neil on April 10, 2013, 07:39:49 AM
Avoiding taxes isn't really theft though.  Hell, even evading taxes isn't really theft.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Razgovory on April 10, 2013, 07:47:05 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 10, 2013, 06:19:16 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2013, 06:13:41 AM
Quote
Plus, that 32 trillion is SOMEWHERE. It is not under pillows. It is in the banks of less fortunate states, which should be a socialist's wet dream I guess.
Less fortunate states?
....
err....
Tax havens tend to be rather wealthy places to put it mildly...
for the bankers, not so much the citiazens. Not all shelters are make coocoo clocks and cheese.

But most are fairly wealthy or at least average.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: dps on April 10, 2013, 08:14:22 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2013, 06:13:41 AM
Quote
Plus, that 32 trillion is SOMEWHERE. It is not under pillows. It is in the banks of less fortunate states, which should be a socialist's wet dream I guess.
Less fortunate states?
....
err....
Tax havens tend to be rather wealthy places to put it mildly...

They do tend to be places lacking in the natural resources needed for tradtional heavy industry, though.

But why that would be a socialist's wet dream, I don't know.  True, those banks aren't just sitting on the money, they're using it for loans and such, generating a lot economic activity, but why a socialist would like that when it's the opposite of socialism I have no idea.  Perhaps Tamas is still somewhat influenced by the notion that socialists actually care about poor people, rather than caring about ideology.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: grumbler on April 10, 2013, 08:43:55 AM
The idea that half of the world's GDP gets "hidden in tax havens" is absurd on the face of it.

Money in banks is part of the world's total wealth, not its total GDP.  If you are going to argue about something, why don't you argue about something that is true and meaningful?  Debating a bogus Marti "fact" isn't going to get you anywhere.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: DGuller on April 10, 2013, 09:10:40 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 10, 2013, 08:43:55 AM
The idea that half of the world's GDP gets "hidden in tax havens" is absurd on the face of it.

Money in banks is part of the world's total wealth, not its total GDP.  If you are going to argue about something, why don't you argue about something that is true and meaningful?  Debating a bogus Marti "fact" isn't going to get you anywhere.
Not sure what your beef is.  Total wealth and total GDP are both expressed in dollar amounts, so things like offshore wealth, or the price of a ballpoint pen, can be expressed in terms of either.  Besides, GDP is a common units by which to measure large amounts of money, even if the money involved are assets rather than income.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Tamas on April 10, 2013, 09:20:41 AM
Quote from: dps on April 10, 2013, 08:14:22 AM
Perhaps Tamas is still somewhat influenced by the notion that socialists actually care about poor people, rather than caring about ideology.

I hinted at that of course. I am actually aware, needless to say, that socialism is a highly selfish ideology.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: grumbler on April 10, 2013, 09:42:06 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 10, 2013, 09:10:40 AM
Not sure what your beef is.  Total wealth and total GDP are both expressed in dollar amounts, so things like offshore wealth, or the price of a ballpoint pen, can be expressed in terms of either.  Besides, GDP is a common units by which to measure large amounts of money, even if the money involved are assets rather than income.

Not all things that can be measured in dollars are the same, just as not all things that can be measured in degrees are the same.  Wealth and income are both measured in currency terms, but any economist could tell you that they are not the same thing.  If the amount of wealth represented by the money "hidden in tax havens" is only 1% of the wealth of the wealthiest 10% of the world's population, then "what are we arguing about?"  If the "hidden" wealth is 50% of the wealth of the wealthiest 10% of the world's population, then we know exacly what we are talking about.  Absent any relationship between "hidden" wealth and any meaningful wealth, we can draw no conclusions.

If nearly half the annual rainfall in Brazil is locked up in polar ice caps, what are we talking about?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 09:50:52 AM
My point was that it is a huge amount, not that half of the world's wealth is hidden away in tax havens.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: The Minsky Moment on April 10, 2013, 10:42:19 AM
I don't know what this means?.  What is being defined as a "tax haven"?  How is the number calculated and what is included?  Note that the fact money is kept in a low tax jurisdiction doesn't mean it isn't subject to tax, especially if the money belongs to a national of a country that taxes citizens on worldwide income (like the US), it doesn't mean it wasn't subject to tax before arriving there, and it doesn't mean it won't be subject to tax if it is used in some transaction outside the "haven" location.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: crazy canuck on April 10, 2013, 11:03:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?

Your second proposition doesnt necessarily flow from your first proposition.  A "tax haven" doesnt mean that tax is not being paid.  Under Canadian law (and I believe US Law) and probably other jurisdictions, moving money offshore does not make it tax exempt in the domestic jurisdiction.

The step you are missing is the claim implied in your assertion that everyone who has money in a "tax haven" is not filing their taxes appropriately.  That is another issue entirely.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Warspite on April 10, 2013, 11:14:07 AM
Noise! Noise! Outrage!
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: viper37 on April 10, 2013, 12:46:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
it's nowhere near as bad as that, these numbers comes from hippie "think" tanks, where think is optional.  The only credible story I've read on this, based on credible numbers, put the amount at 4,6 trillion $ in 2007.  You can't really have more money invested in fiscal paradise than there are money in banks all accross the world, that just makes no sense.

Than you factor in a marginal tax rate of 35% accross OCDE countries, wich nets you 1,6 trillion $, assuming 100% of this money has never been declared.  Still a huge sum of money.  But then, you go with the money each country would get, assuming equal proportion as their share of the world's GDP (it's a stretch, but let's use it).  You get some really low numbers.  Something that covers the deficit for one year in a country like Canada.

And then you submit a sample of real data to people who study these sort of things, and you get even lower numbers.  We're talking 7 billion$ for Canada and all its provinces.  Still a lot of money?  Well, Quebec's current (real) deficit will be 8 billion$ this year.  That's a yearly deficit, not a debt. 

So even if we were able to tax all that money this year, we wouldn't cover our yearly deficit.  And people still use that excuse to avoid any kind of wellfare state reform.

If we were to do that maths, seriously, for any OCDE countries, I think we'd reach similar conclusions.

And of course, there is the matter of the legality of these sums of money.  It's easy to imagine filthy rich US billionaires evading their tax, but the reality is that a lot of this money would belong to criminal organization and their people.  Even if you eliminate all tax loopholes, "Al Queida of America Inc." is not going to file tax reports every year on its international operation.

And if we eliminate those fiscal paradise with 0% corportate taxes, will the business declare their tax were they pay 35% income tax or were they pay 12%?  In the end, some countries will get more tax revenues, but probably not the one the left assume.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 10, 2013, 02:59:50 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 10, 2013, 10:42:19 AM
I don't know what this means?.  What is being defined as a "tax haven"?  How is the number calculated and what is included?  Note that the fact money is kept in a low tax jurisdiction doesn't mean it isn't subject to tax, especially if the money belongs to a national of a country that taxes citizens on worldwide income (like the US), it doesn't mean it wasn't subject to tax before arriving there, and it doesn't mean it won't be subject to tax if it is used in some transaction outside the "haven" location.

This is the post I wanted to make earlier.

In a Michael Moore documentary we could just use Marty's number as a stand-in for tax cheating.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Sheilbh on April 10, 2013, 05:39:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 10, 2013, 12:46:20 PM
it's nowhere near as bad as that, these numbers comes from hippie "think" tanks, where think is optional.  The only credible story I've read on this, based on credible numbers, put the amount at 4,6 trillion $ in 2007.  You can't really have more money invested in fiscal paradise than there are money in banks all accross the world, that just makes no sense.
I thought it came from the leaks about off-shore banking?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Ideologue on April 10, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 10, 2013, 07:39:49 AM
Avoiding taxes isn't really theft though.  Hell, even evading taxes isn't really theft.

True.  Theft should be punished with restitution and perhaps a beating.  Evading taxes is treason, and should be punished by execution.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Grey Fox on April 10, 2013, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 10, 2013, 12:46:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
it's nowhere near as bad as that, these numbers comes from hippie "think" tanks, where think is optional.  The only credible story I've read on this, based on credible numbers, put the amount at 4,6 trillion $ in 2007.  You can't really have more money invested in fiscal paradise than there are money in banks all accross the world, that just makes no sense.

Than you factor in a marginal tax rate of 35% accross OCDE countries, wich nets you 1,6 trillion $, assuming 100% of this money has never been declared.  Still a huge sum of money.  But then, you go with the money each country would get, assuming equal proportion as their share of the world's GDP (it's a stretch, but let's use it).  You get some really low numbers.  Something that covers the deficit for one year in a country like Canada.

And then you submit a sample of real data to people who study these sort of things, and you get even lower numbers.  We're talking 7 billion$ for Canada and all its provinces.  Still a lot of money?  Well, Quebec's current (real) deficit will be 8 billion$ this year.  That's a yearly deficit, not a debt. 

So even if we were able to tax all that money this year, we wouldn't cover our yearly deficit.  And people still use that excuse to avoid any kind of wellfare state reform.

If we were to do that maths, seriously, for any OCDE countries, I think we'd reach similar conclusions.

And of course, there is the matter of the legality of these sums of money.  It's easy to imagine filthy rich US billionaires evading their tax, but the reality is that a lot of this money would belong to criminal organization and their people.  Even if you eliminate all tax loopholes, "Al Queida of America Inc." is not going to file tax reports every year on its international operation.

And if we eliminate those fiscal paradise with 0% corportate taxes, will the business declare their tax were they pay 35% income tax or were they pay 12%?  In the end, some countries will get more tax revenues, but probably not the one the left assume.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 09:40:53 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 10, 2013, 05:39:23 PM
I thought it came from the leaks about off-shore banking?
Well, I haven't seen the numbers for all countries.  But for all of Canada, they estimate it at 7 billion$ lost, for all provinces&the federal government.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 10, 2013, 06:57:23 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: frunk on April 11, 2013, 10:15:27 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

So if you found out that $7 billion was being scammed out of unemployment insurance you'd be ok with that?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:42:46 AM
Quote from: frunk on April 11, 2013, 10:15:27 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

So if you found out that $7 billion was being scammed out of unemployment insurance you'd be ok with that?
I never said I was ok.

But if I found 7 billion$ was being scammed out of unemployment insurance, it wouldn't change my stance on it, I wouldn't push for an increase in payement to unemployed workers, I wouldn't relax the conditions to receive these payments and I would still fight against the culure of dependance it has created on some group of workers where it is "due" to them.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Zanza on April 11, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
Are you doing your part now? Or are you still proud that thanks to some legal trick you pay much less relative income tax than the average Polish worker?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 11, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
Are you doing your part now? Or are you still proud that thanks to some legal trick you pay much less relative income tax than the average Polish worker?
Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 11:09:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.

Ah, the age old excuse of the tax dodging hypocrite.  If the State would only do what you think it should then you would pay more taxes but until then you will compain if others dont.

Put this one on the vast pile of your double standards.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 11:09:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.

Ah, the age old excuse of the tax dodging hypocrite.  If the State would only do what you think it should then you would pay more taxes but until then you will compain if others dont.

Put this one on the vast pile of your double standards.

Not really. I pay much higher taxes anyway than I would have if I was married to my partner and we benefited from the same taxation scheme as married couples. We also cannot benefit from many other tax breaks. It's not about the state doing what I think it should, but about the state putting me in a worse position, tax-wise, specifically because of my sexual orientation.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2013, 11:12:28 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Where did you get this number from?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 11:17:54 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2013, 11:12:28 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Where did you get this number from?

Whenever picking a number between 1 and 10 the answer should always be 7.  The real question is why he thought the range was between 1 and 10.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Grey Fox on April 11, 2013, 11:56:19 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 10, 2013, 06:57:23 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

Finding 7 billion in lost revenu is nice. I do not think that deficit is a problem.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 12:06:49 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 11, 2013, 11:56:19 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 10, 2013, 06:57:23 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

Finding 7 billion in lost revenu is nice. I do not think that deficit is a problem.

:wacko:
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Razgovory on April 11, 2013, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 11:09:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.

Ah, the age old excuse of the tax dodging hypocrite.  If the State would only do what you think it should then you would pay more taxes but until then you will compain if others dont.

Put this one on the vast pile of your double standards.


Not really. I pay much higher taxes anyway than I would have if I was married to my partner and we benefited from the same taxation scheme as married couples. We also cannot benefit from many other tax breaks. It's not about the state doing what I think it should, but about the state putting me in a worse position, tax-wise, specifically because of my sexual orientation.

But you wouldn't be married anyway...
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Grey Fox on April 11, 2013, 01:00:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 11, 2013, 12:06:49 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 11, 2013, 11:56:19 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 10, 2013, 06:57:23 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quebec's deficit for this year, the real one, not the PQ fake estimate with bogus accounting, will be 8 billion$.  Quebec alone.

For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Please, tell me how it will solve all our problems and pay for the new expenses the left wants?

Finding 7 billion in lost revenu is nice. I do not think that deficit is a problem.

:wacko:

The accounting of a government is all lies anyway.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: DGuller on April 11, 2013, 01:01:46 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 11, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
Are you doing your part now? Or are you still proud that thanks to some legal trick you pay much less relative income tax than the average Polish worker?
:face:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_fWB7SMSlmzo%2FTUv9MdoVAaI%2FAAAAAAAAAJM%2F2WT2cthTxpo%2Fs1600%2FSANY3034.JPG&hash=ae7e44c7108845f83a2e9240664e6da72da34682)
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 01:47:39 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 11, 2013, 11:56:19 AM
Finding 7 billion in lost revenu is nice. I do not think that deficit is a problem.

That certainly explains your voting preferences.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Zanza on April 11, 2013, 02:00:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 11, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
Are you doing your part now? Or are you still proud that thanks to some legal trick you pay much less relative income tax than the average Polish worker?
Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.
Wouldn't it be more consequential to stop the tax privileges of married couples instead of just adding another privileged group to the tax break?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 02:04:49 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 11, 2013, 02:00:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
Quote from: Zanza on April 11, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
So, this thread was inspired by an article I read recently (unfortunately, only in print). According to estimates, up to $32 trillion of assets is stacked away in tax havens. This is nearly half of the global GDP (which is around $75 trillion).

We spend hours discussing the failures of the welfare state, whether to raise or decrease taxes etc. but at the end of the day, does it even matter if the uber-class simply does not play by the same rules as everyone else?
Are you doing your part now? Or are you still proud that thanks to some legal trick you pay much less relative income tax than the average Polish worker?
Polish state repeatedly refuses to recognize same sex unions. Thus, as a second class citizen, I don't feel obliged to pay first-class taxes.
Wouldn't it be more consequential to stop the tax privileges of married couples instead of just adding another privileged group to the tax break?
Yes, but until either happens I do not feel obliged to pay my dues.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Grey Fox on April 11, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 11, 2013, 01:47:39 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 11, 2013, 11:56:19 AM
Finding 7 billion in lost revenu is nice. I do not think that deficit is a problem.

That certainly explains your voting preferences.

:yes:
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Razgovory on April 11, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 02:04:49 PM

Yes, but until either happens I do not feel obliged to pay my dues.

If they do will you pay back taxes, or are you just the worst sort of scum?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Neil on April 11, 2013, 05:22:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 02:04:49 PM
Yes, but until either happens I do not feel obliged to pay my dues.
That's a lie and you know it, faggot.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 12, 2013, 12:57:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 11, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2013, 02:04:49 PM

Yes, but until either happens I do not feel obliged to pay my dues.

If they do will you pay back taxes, or are you just the worst sort of scum?

Back? No. But I will start paying according to a sliding scale.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Martinus on April 12, 2013, 06:13:02 AM
Anyways, my accountant just sent me my 2012 tax statement and I paid US$38,000 in direct (income) taxes alone so that's enough for a second class citizen, I think.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Razgovory on April 12, 2013, 06:21:28 AM
You really are scum aren't you?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Ed Anger on April 12, 2013, 06:32:26 AM
Look at my tax bill!
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Ideologue on April 12, 2013, 06:39:40 AM
Maybe Poland really isn't so bad, if it takes away enough of Martinus' money to buy a shitty house or a nice car every year.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: viper37 on April 12, 2013, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2013, 11:12:28 AM
Quote from: viper37 on April 11, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
For all of Canada, 7 billion$ were lost in taxes from revenues hidden in tax haven.

Where did you get this number from?
Media coverage of the fiscal-leaks.  One report on French CBC (Enquête, April4th), they showed the data to a fiscality teacher from the HEC (Hautes Études Commerciales) in Montreal, they evaluated based, on this sample, the sum to be 7billion$ for all Canadian jurisdiction, if everything was illegal.

For the sake of discussion in this forum, I assume their study was valid, them having the original data and me not having it.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: garbon on April 12, 2013, 03:25:29 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 12, 2013, 06:32:26 AM
Look at my tax bill!

:D
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: grumbler on April 12, 2013, 04:56:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 12, 2013, 06:13:02 AM
Anyways, my accountant just sent me my 2012 tax statement and I paid US$38,000 in direct (income) taxes alone so that's enough for a second class citizen, I think.

The Russian ambassador and I had lunch today, and I found out I had paid $54,000 in income taxes alone.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Ancient Demon on April 14, 2013, 11:08:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 12, 2013, 06:13:02 AM
Anyways, my accountant just sent me my 2012 tax statement and I paid US$38,000 in direct (income) taxes alone so that's enough for a second class citizen, I think.

How much more would you pay if the government recognized same-sex marriage?
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Neil on April 14, 2013, 12:33:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 12, 2013, 06:39:40 AM
Maybe Poland really isn't so bad, if it takes away enough of Martinus' money to buy a shitty house or a nice car every year.
He's evading taxes.  What ever happened to 'Treason!  Kill them!'
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Ideologue on April 14, 2013, 01:23:05 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 14, 2013, 12:33:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 12, 2013, 06:39:40 AM
Maybe Poland really isn't so bad, if it takes away enough of Martinus' money to buy a shitty house or a nice car every year.
He's evading taxes.  What ever happened to 'Treason!  Kill them!'

Is he?  I missed that.  Take him out behind the chemical sheds, then.
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: Valmy on April 14, 2013, 03:40:49 PM
I am sure every single one of those tax dodging dollars is just as rationalized by its owner as Martinus'
Title: Re: If near half of the world GDP is hidden in tax havens, what are we arguing about
Post by: OttoVonBismarck on April 14, 2013, 03:58:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 12, 2013, 06:13:02 AM
Anyways, my accountant just sent me my 2012 tax statement and I paid US$38,000 in direct (income) taxes alone so that's enough for a second class citizen, I think.

Isn't that enough money to buy a whole village in Poland?