I was re-reading Victor Hanson's "A War Like No Other" on the can and came across the relevant passage on building triremes so I thought I copy it. Forgot which thread the original question was in.
"Each year at Athens...four hundred of the wealthiest citizens were put on notice as being liable for obligations as trierarchs (trireme commanders), which entailed, among other responsibilities, active command of a warship at sea...
The state usually supplied the hull, the fittings, and the crew, although in a few instances some rich men bought and outfitted their own warships altogether. But the trierarch was mostly responsible for most of the ship's daily expenses--repairs, food and water for the crew...
At first glance such private initiative seems out of character for an all-inclusive state government like that of imperial Athens. In fact, the trierarchy was a forced contribution on the part of the wealthy to the state, what the Greeks called a liturgy."
(Interesting origin of the word liturgy.)
Interestingly, when undergoing military service, a zeugites (middle-class citizen who could afford a hoplite panoply) received the same pay as a thetes (lower-class citizen serving as an oarsman in a trireme), ie a drachma a day.
That pay could be regarded as expenses for the hoplite (usually a medium-sized farmer) and as a living wage for a thetes who might otherwise have been in poverty.
Aged and impoverished citizens were called for jury service on enormous juries (6000 men) and paid a dole of 2 or 3 obols a day.
Citizens in 5th century BC Athens contributed to the State in accordance with their ability to do so and received benefits as citizens if they were poor.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 26, 2013, 06:02:55 PM
I was re-reading Victor Hanson's "A War Like No Other" on the can and came across the relevant passage on building triremes so I thought I copy it. Forgot which thread the original question was in.
"Each year at Athens...four hundred of the wealthiest citizens were put on notice as being liable for obligations as trierarchs (trireme commanders), which entailed, among other responsibilities, active command of a warship at sea...
The state usually supplied the hull, the fittings, and the crew, although in a few instances some rich men bought and outfitted their own warships altogether. But the trierarch was mostly responsible for most of the ship's daily expenses--repairs, food and water for the crew...
At first glance such private initiative seems out of character for an all-inclusive state government like that of imperial Athens. In fact, the trierarchy was a forced contribution on the part of the wealthy to the state, what the Greeks called a liturgy."
(Interesting origin of the word liturgy.)
Good stuff. I had been under the impression that the wealthy had some discretion on how to serve the state: maybe I was wrong. I had actually gotten the impression from somewhere that demosthenes was the first person to build or equip a trireme privately: I guess I was wrong there too.
It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 26, 2013, 06:31:23 PM
Interestingly, when undergoing military service, a zeugites (middle-class citizen who could afford a hoplite panoply) received the same pay as a thetes (lower-class citizen serving as an oarsman in a trireme), ie a drachma a day.
That pay could be regarded as expenses for the hoplite (usually a medium-sized farmer) and as a living wage for a thetes who might otherwise have been in poverty.
Aged and impoverished citizens were called for jury service on enormous juries (6000 men) and paid a dole of 2 or 3 obols a day.
Citizens in 5th century BC Athens contributed to the State in accordance with their ability to do so and received benefits as citizens if they were poor.
I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?
It seems in the 5th century the welfare system in athens was in the form of naval employment, but in the 4th century the welfare system (the theorica) actually kept funds from the military. The 5th century is considered the golden age, but I wonder if we don't have it backwards: very few writers survive from the period, and if it wasn't for Herodotus and Thucydides we would know very little. It was the 4th century that made a lot of the cultural impact.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 26, 2013, 07:22:54 PM
It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.
I would be surprised if wealth inequalities in ancient Athens were greater than wealth inequalities in modern US.
For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).
*Don't have exact statistics for that, but considering that number 400th on the Forbes' richest American list has net worth of over $1 billion, that's highly likely. I think Athenians simply felt like they owe much more to their state.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 26, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?
This is also nothing like the modern US. :D
"I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?"
I'm not at all sure why Athenian citizenship was so exclusive :hmm:
The citizenship law was tightened in 451/450 under the auspices of Pericles. Prior to that if your father was an Athenian citizen then so were you; afterwards both parents had to be Athenian citizens.
http://philo.at/wiki/images/Waring-pericles.pdf
Contrast that with Rome, probably the main reason why one state was bound to be a flash in the pan, while the other could achieve long term greatness.
Republican Rome. :wub:
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:42:22 AM
For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).
That's the price the government pays. Defense procurement is ridiculously expensive and over-engineered, so if this was left to private citizens you would probably get a plane that performs 5% worse and costs 50% less.
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:42:22 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 26, 2013, 07:22:54 PM
It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.
I would be surprised if wealth inequalities in ancient Athens were greater than wealth inequalities in modern US.
For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).
*Don't have exact statistics for that, but considering that number 400th on the Forbes' richest American list has net worth of over $1 billion, that's highly likely. I think Athenians simply felt like they owe much more to their state.
The United States covers a good part of a continent. Athens was a city of ~300k or so. For a city of that size in an economy that was preindustrial, to find 400 citizens able to support a warship of 200 people is I think not analogous to the US today.
Also, the ancient world did not have nearly the amount of wealth that we do today as it was much closer to a subsistence economy.
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:43:26 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 26, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?
This is also nothing like the modern US. :D
I could be wrong about athenian citizenship, but I think metic families could not get Athenian citizenship except under extraordinary circumstances. It was possible for a well off metic man to have had generations of ancestors on both sides of the family be born and live in Athens, but still not have citizenship. That is nothing like the modern US.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 27, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:43:26 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 26, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?
This is also nothing like the modern US. :D
I could be wrong about athenian citizenship, but I think metic families could not get Athenian citizenship except under extraordinary circumstances. It was possible for a well off metic man to have had generations of ancestors on both sides of the family be born and live in Athens, but still not have citizenship. That is nothing like the modern US.
It's not that different for illegal immigrants in the US.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 27, 2013, 03:19:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:42:22 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 26, 2013, 07:22:54 PM
It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.
I would be surprised if wealth inequalities in ancient Athens were greater than wealth inequalities in modern US.
For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).
*Don't have exact statistics for that, but considering that number 400th on the Forbes' richest American list has net worth of over $1 billion, that's highly likely. I think Athenians simply felt like they owe much more to their state.
The United States covers a good part of a continent. Athens was a city of ~300k or so. For a city of that size in an economy that was preindustrial, to find 400 citizens able to support a warship of 200 people is I think not analogous to the US today.
Also, the ancient world did not have nearly the amount of wealth that we do today as it was much closer to a subsistence economy.
Also the poorest people in the US aren't slaves, so that probably narrows the gap quite a bit.
This could be a good idea today! ;) Wealthy Americans, or corporations, could pay for the maintenance and crews, training and equipping of US Navy ships! That'll cut down defense budget expenses. :cool:
The USS General Motors, USS Bill Gates! :D
Quote from: Martinus on March 28, 2013, 03:24:05 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 27, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 27, 2013, 02:43:26 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 26, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?
This is also nothing like the modern US. :D
I could be wrong about athenian citizenship, but I think metic families could not get Athenian citizenship except under extraordinary circumstances. It was possible for a well off metic man to have had generations of ancestors on both sides of the family be born and live in Athens, but still not have citizenship. That is nothing like the modern US.
It's not that different for illegal immigrants in the US.
It is quite different. For starters, a child born in the US to illegal parents is a US citizen.
Quote from: KRonn on March 28, 2013, 07:34:09 AM
This could be a good idea today! ;) Wealthy Americans, or corporations, could pay for the maintenance and crews, training and equipping of US Navy ships! That'll cut down defense budget expenses. :cool:
The USS General Motors, USS Bill Gates! :D
Actually individuals and charities often sponsored ships in WWII.
The income inequality in a modern state can't be compared to states of classical history. The later were dominated by huge landowners dependent on slaves who made up a large percentage of the population. The Kim family's economic dominance of North Korea is likely the closest parrel in modern times, but someone like Augustus Ceaser who ruled the whole Mediterannean would blow him out of the water when adjusted for inflation.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 28, 2013, 07:46:35 PM
The income inequality in a modern state can't be compared to states of classical history. The later were dominated by huge landowners dependent on slaves who made up a large percentage of the population. The Kim family's economic dominance of North Korea is likely the closest parrel in modern times, but someone like Augustus Ceaser who ruled the whole Mediterannean would blow him out of the water when adjusted for inflation.
The situation in Augustus' time was the end result of a centuries-long process. It does not describe the position in 5th century BC Athens, Sparta or the Roman Republic. These 5th century states protected and encouraged independent small farmers, these were the citizen body and the citizens were also the defence of the state. There seems to have been a tendency throughout the period for wealth to concentrate in fewer hands and in the end that tendency triumphed; but there were also strong forces at work fighting that trend. There were social wars which aimed to redistribute income, one thinks of the events leading to the destruction of Sybaris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybaris or the rule of Nabis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabis in Sparta.
I find it interesting that the increasing concentration of wealth in antiquity coincided with a lack of dynamism in those societies. I reckon we are currently on that road ourselves.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 29, 2013, 04:23:42 AM
The situation in Augustus' time was the end result of a centuries-long process. It does not describe the position in 5th century BC Athens, Sparta or the Roman Republic. These 5th century states protected and encouraged independent small farmers, these were the citizen body and the citizens were also the defence of the state. There seems to have been a tendency throughout the period for wealth to concentrate in fewer hands and in the end that tendency triumphed; but there were also strong forces at work fighting that trend. There were social wars which aimed to redistribute income, one thinks of the events leading to the destruction of Sybaris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybaris or the rule of Nabis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabis in Sparta.
I find it interesting that the increasing concentration of wealth in antiquity coincided with a lack of dynamism in those societies. I reckon we are currently on that road ourselves.
What you say is true, to some extent (though less so of Rome in the fifth century, I think), but the income inequalities in ancient states were greater by a considerable measure than that of modern Western states. These states had, after all, a substantial proportion of slaves, who not only owned little or nothing, but were owned themselves. The vast majority of free citizens were essentially peasants, just one step up the ladder from slaves themselves. According to the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece) (which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it) a fourth-century BCE census showed that Athens had 21,000 citizens and 10,000 Metics, plus 400,00 slaves. The richest 10% of Athenians were surely many more times wealthier compared to the average than the richest 10% of Americans are compared to the average - contrary to Marti's claim.
I dunno why Marti feels so compelled to say silly things about the US.
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2013, 03:47:47 PM
(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)
:hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2013, 05:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2013, 03:47:47 PM
(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)
:hmm:
Grumbler was in Persia at this time.
Ah.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2013, 05:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2013, 03:47:47 PM
(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)
:hmm:
Wiki is great for finding sources that you can use to back up your arguments. It is not authoritative, however, so my supporting data is caveated: I don't have access to the source of the Wiki author's facts.
Quote from: PDH on March 30, 2013, 06:08:59 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2013, 05:56:45 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2013, 03:47:47 PM
(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)
:hmm:
Grumbler was in Persia at this time.
Carving "Spellus sucks" into the royal tomb of Cyrus.