Fredo's Question About Athenian Obligations

[Admiral Yi]

I was re-reading Victor Hanson's "A War Like No Other" on the can and came across the relevant passage on building triremes so I thought I copy it.  Forgot which thread the original question was in.

"Each year at Athens...four hundred of the wealthiest citizens were put on notice as being liable for obligations as trierarchs (trireme commanders), which entailed, among other responsibilities, active command of a warship at sea...

The state usually supplied the hull, the fittings, and the crew, although in a few instances some rich men bought and outfitted their own warships altogether.  But the trierarch was mostly responsible for most of the ship's daily expenses--repairs, food and water for the crew...

At first glance such private initiative seems out of character for an all-inclusive state government like that of imperial Athens.  In fact, the trierarchy was a forced contribution on the part of the wealthy to the state, what the Greeks called a liturgy."

(Interesting origin of the word liturgy.)

[Richard Hakluyt]

Interestingly, when undergoing military service, a zeugites (middle-class citizen who could afford a hoplite panoply) received the same pay as a thetes (lower-class citizen serving as an oarsman in a trireme), ie a drachma a day.

That pay could be regarded as expenses for the hoplite (usually a medium-sized farmer) and as a living wage for a thetes who might otherwise have been in poverty.

Aged and impoverished citizens were called for jury service on enormous juries (6000 men) and paid a dole of 2 or 3 obols a day.

Citizens in 5th century BC Athens contributed to the State in accordance with their ability to do so and received benefits as citizens if they were poor.

[alfred russel]

I was re-reading Victor Hanson's "A War Like No Other" on the can and came across the relevant passage on building triremes so I thought I copy it.  Forgot which thread the original question was in.

"Each year at Athens...four hundred of the wealthiest citizens were put on notice as being liable for obligations as trierarchs (trireme commanders), which entailed, among other responsibilities, active command of a warship at sea...

The state usually supplied the hull, the fittings, and the crew, although in a few instances some rich men bought and outfitted their own warships altogether.  But the trierarch was mostly responsible for most of the ship's daily expenses--repairs, food and water for the crew...

At first glance such private initiative seems out of character for an all-inclusive state government like that of imperial Athens.  In fact, the trierarchy was a forced contribution on the part of the wealthy to the state, what the Greeks called a liturgy."

(Interesting origin of the word liturgy.)

Good stuff. I had been under the impression that the wealthy had some discretion on how to serve the state: maybe I was wrong. I had actually gotten the impression from somewhere that demosthenes was the first person to build or equip a trireme privately: I guess I was wrong there too.

It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.

[alfred russel]

Interestingly, when undergoing military service, a zeugites (middle-class citizen who could afford a hoplite panoply) received the same pay as a thetes (lower-class citizen serving as an oarsman in a trireme), ie a drachma a day.

That pay could be regarded as expenses for the hoplite (usually a medium-sized farmer) and as a living wage for a thetes who might otherwise have been in poverty.

Aged and impoverished citizens were called for jury service on enormous juries (6000 men) and paid a dole of 2 or 3 obols a day.

Citizens in 5th century BC Athens contributed to the State in accordance with their ability to do so and received benefits as citizens if they were poor.

I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?

It seems in the 5th century the welfare system in athens was in the form of naval employment, but in the 4th century the welfare system (the theorica) actually kept funds from the military. The 5th century is considered the golden age, but I wonder if we don't have it backwards: very few writers survive from the period, and if it wasn't for Herodotus and Thucydides we would know very little. It was the 4th century that made a lot of the cultural impact.

[Martinus]

It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.

I would be surprised if wealth inequalities in ancient Athens were greater than wealth inequalities in modern US.

For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).

*Don't have exact statistics for that, but considering that number 400th on the Forbes' richest American list has net worth of over $1 billion, that's highly likely. I think Athenians simply felt like they owe much more to their state.

[Martinus]

I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?

This is also nothing like the modern US. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

"I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?"

I'm not at all sure why Athenian citizenship was so exclusive 

The citizenship law was tightened in 451/450 under the auspices of Pericles. Prior to that if your father was an Athenian citizen then so were you; afterwards both parents had to be Athenian citizens.

http://philo.at/wiki/images/Waring-pericles.pdf

Contrast that with Rome, probably the main reason why one state was bound to be a flash in the pan, while the other could achieve long term greatness.

[The Brain]

Republican Rome.

[Zanza]

For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).

That's the price the government pays. Defense procurement is ridiculously expensive and over-engineered, so if this was left to private citizens you would probably get a plane that performs 5% worse and costs 50% less.

[alfred russel]

It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.

I would be surprised if wealth inequalities in ancient Athens were greater than wealth inequalities in modern US.

For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).

*Don't have exact statistics for that, but considering that number 400th on the Forbes' richest American list has net worth of over $1 billion, that's highly likely. I think Athenians simply felt like they owe much more to their state.

The United States covers a good part of a continent. Athens was a city of ~300k or so. For a city of that size in an economy that was preindustrial, to find 400 citizens able to support a warship of 200 people is I think not analogous to the US today.

Also, the ancient world did not have nearly the amount of wealth that we do today as it was much closer to a subsistence economy.

[alfred russel]

I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?

This is also nothing like the modern US. 

I could be wrong about athenian citizenship, but I think metic families could not get Athenian citizenship except under extraordinary circumstances. It was possible for a well off metic man to have had generations of ancestors on both sides of the family be born and live in Athens, but still not have citizenship. That is nothing like the modern US.

[Martinus]

I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?

This is also nothing like the modern US. 

I could be wrong about athenian citizenship, but I think metic families could not get Athenian citizenship except under extraordinary circumstances. It was possible for a well off metic man to have had generations of ancestors on both sides of the family be born and live in Athens, but still not have citizenship. That is nothing like the modern US.

It's not that different for illegal immigrants in the US.

[Razgovory]

It is interesting how concentrated the wealth was in the ancient world. The expenses the leading public figures shouldered could be immense: but that they did so is hardly surprising considering how tenuous property rights could be.

I would be surprised if wealth inequalities in ancient Athens were greater than wealth inequalities in modern US.

For example, I could bet* that 1000 richest Americans could each outfit a F15 (app. US$30 million cost).

*Don't have exact statistics for that, but considering that number 400th on the Forbes' richest American list has net worth of over $1 billion, that's highly likely. I think Athenians simply felt like they owe much more to their state.

The United States covers a good part of a continent. Athens was a city of ~300k or so. For a city of that size in an economy that was preindustrial, to find 400 citizens able to support a warship of 200 people is I think not analogous to the US today.

Also, the ancient world did not have nearly the amount of wealth that we do today as it was much closer to a subsistence economy.

Also the poorest people in the US aren't slaves, so that probably narrows the gap quite a bit.

[KRonn]

This could be a good idea today!     Wealthy Americans, or corporations, could pay for the maintenance and crews, training and equipping of US Navy ships! That'll cut down defense budget expenses.    
The USS General Motors, USS Bill Gates!   

[alfred russel]

I think it is interesting that the metics were excluded from citizenship for so long when they were apparently so well integrated into daily life. Perhaps the wealthy didn't want anything to do with possibly expanding the welfare state, and the poor didn't want their funds diluted?

This is also nothing like the modern US. 

I could be wrong about athenian citizenship, but I think metic families could not get Athenian citizenship except under extraordinary circumstances. It was possible for a well off metic man to have had generations of ancestors on both sides of the family be born and live in Athens, but still not have citizenship. That is nothing like the modern US.

It's not that different for illegal immigrants in the US.

It is quite different. For starters, a child born in the US to illegal parents is a US citizen.