Fredo's Question About Athenian Obligations

[Razgovory]

This could be a good idea today!     Wealthy Americans, or corporations, could pay for the maintenance and crews, training and equipping of US Navy ships! That'll cut down defense budget expenses.    
The USS General Motors, USS Bill Gates!   

Actually individuals and charities often sponsored ships in WWII.

[jimmy olsen]

The income inequality in a modern state can't be compared to states of classical history. The later were dominated by huge landowners dependent on slaves who made up a large percentage of the population. The Kim family's economic dominance of North Korea is likely the closest parrel in modern times, but someone like Augustus Ceaser who ruled the whole Mediterannean would blow him out of the water when adjusted for inflation.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The income inequality in a modern state can't be compared to states of classical history. The later were dominated by huge landowners dependent on slaves who made up a large percentage of the population. The Kim family's economic dominance of North Korea is likely the closest parrel in modern times, but someone like Augustus Ceaser who ruled the whole Mediterannean would blow him out of the water when adjusted for inflation.

The situation in Augustus' time was the end result of a centuries-long process. It does not describe the position in 5th century BC Athens, Sparta or the Roman Republic. These 5th century states protected and encouraged independent small farmers, these were the citizen body and the citizens were also the defence of the state. There seems to have been a tendency throughout the period for wealth to concentrate in fewer hands and in the end that tendency triumphed; but there were also strong forces at work fighting that trend. There were social wars which aimed to redistribute income, one thinks of the events leading to the destruction of Sybaris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybaris or the rule of Nabis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabis in Sparta.

I find it interesting that the increasing concentration of wealth in antiquity coincided with a lack of dynamism in those societies. I reckon we are currently on that road ourselves.

[grumbler]

The situation in Augustus' time was the end result of a centuries-long process. It does not describe the position in 5th century BC Athens, Sparta or the Roman Republic. These 5th century states protected and encouraged independent small farmers, these were the citizen body and the citizens were also the defence of the state. There seems to have been a tendency throughout the period for wealth to concentrate in fewer hands and in the end that tendency triumphed; but there were also strong forces at work fighting that trend. There were social wars which aimed to redistribute income, one thinks of the events leading to the destruction of Sybaris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybaris or the rule of Nabis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabis in Sparta.

I find it interesting that the increasing concentration of wealth in antiquity coincided with a lack of dynamism in those societies. I reckon we are currently on that road ourselves.

What you say is true, to some extent (though less so of Rome in the fifth century, I think), but the income inequalities in ancient states were greater by a considerable measure than that of modern Western states.  These states had, after all, a substantial proportion of slaves, who not only owned little or nothing, but were owned themselves.  The vast majority of free citizens were essentially peasants, just one step up the ladder from slaves themselves.  According to the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece (which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it) a fourth-century BCE census showed that Athens had 21,000 citizens and 10,000 Metics, plus 400,00 slaves. The richest 10% of Athenians were surely many more times wealthier compared to the average than the richest 10% of Americans are compared to the average - contrary to Marti's claim.

I dunno why Marti feels so compelled to say silly things about the US.

[Admiral Yi]

(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)

[PDH]

(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)

Grumbler was in Persia at this time.

[Admiral Yi]

Ah.

[grumbler]

(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)

Wiki is great for finding sources that you can use to back up your arguments.  It is not authoritative, however, so my supporting data is caveated: I don't have access to the source of the Wiki author's facts.

[Ed Anger]

(which relies on an ancient Greek source, so I can't verify it)

Grumbler was in Persia at this time.

Carving "Spellus sucks" into the royal tomb of Cyrus.